Missing the old Greek HXP ball ammo? More seems to have been found.

While preparing to dive into another reloading project in preparation of one of the 1950 Long Branch rifles I sold back in the early 90's coming back to me, I was online looking for some suggestions on where to start with developing loads for PP's 190gr FMJ load.

My search engine decided it couldn't help me with a link to help me with that (Quickload, anybody?), but it did offer me this:

HXP 303 British Military Surplus 174GR FMJ Brass Case NON-CORROSIVE 1970’s Greek Production. Packed in Spam Cans, in Bandoliers and Stripper Clips (300rds) Free Shipping $233.95
.303 British HXP ammo | Shop Ammunitions | Max Arms

I still have somewhere between 500 and a 1000 rounds of HXP still squirreled away from when it was cheap like borscht at the end of the 1980's, and I now have reload data that is a bit better in my rifle than even the HXP that I used and considered to be my benchmark.

Otherwise, I would be sitting down figuring out how many cans of this HXP ammunition I was willing to fork out for. The usual: I have no association with this online merchant and know nothing about them or about their business reputation, either good or bad.

Hope this helps some Service Rifle serious shooters out that miss the HXP and similar ball ammunition.

Now, that out of the way: is my karma working and does anybody have some ballpark level starting loads for PP's 190 grain FMJ BT bullet?

In my loading notes, I have a find from PP that they had a military 190gr ball BT Mk8z at some point with a claimed MV of about 2360 fps - I'll be looking for a potential grouping find, not chasing their velocities.

PP offers the bullet as a component as well as the 174, 180 and 182 gr, offerings, so for the price of a bag of them I am going to see if there's anything special they might deliver as a grouping surprise.

Yugo had Hurricanes at the beginning of WW2, and a lot of wartime support (mostly to Tito's "partisans").
I've always been curious why they made so much .303 unless it was to support the Greek Commie insurgents in the 50s.

This company also had some FN producted 7.62 in 1,200 round cases.
I bought one.
Then I bought another.
Then I bought at third.
I was going to buy a 4th, and they sold out.
No issues with the sale or delivery.

Thanks, Rick for the heads up. FYI the price was 242.95 but with free shipping. Price is well worth it for the brass and clips alone. Last time I wanted just a clip or two for my range back the cheapest were like $12+ each. I have plenty of 303 projectiles on hand but my brass is finally showing its age. Sorry can't help on the load data you are interested in - I always tend to load my 303 light for 100-200yd plinking at steal targets in order to save wear on brass. This with frequent annealing has given 17 reloadings of my winchester brass so far, but my borecam has decided it's time for them to go in the recycle pile after the next firing. I should be set for life now.

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

I've always been curious why they made so much .303 unless it was to support the Greek Commie insurgents in the 50s.

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I did some all expenses paid vacations in the Balkans in the 1990's. That was actually the Third Balkan War after Tito's death, if you count them originally going at it when it was part of the Austria-Hungarian Empire hot mess leading up to WWI.

[sidebar: WWI was an inevitability, whether or not there was an Archduke Ferdinand, Sofia, and a murderous Serb: an excellent (and depressing) detailed audio narrative of the military and political history of WW1 is Dan Carlin's Hardcore History "Blueprint For Armageddon" series. Much of it covers the decisions and thinking at the top levels, but almost as much covers the perspectives and historical writing of the individual soldiers in the trenches. https://www.dancarlin.com/product/ha...eddon-series/]

WWII was the excuse/opportunity for them to go back at it again i.e. the Chetniks and Ustache in the Second Balkan War. I talked to a couple of German WWII veterans at a gasthaus I was having lunch and beer at while touring the alpine passes of Europe on a motorcycle. One of the things that stuck in my memory is that through the bartender who was also acting as interpreter, they told me Germans thought being sent to the Russian Front was bad, but being sent to the Balkans was far, far worse. They said that if the Russians captured you, they'd just murder you instead of taking you prisoner. If they got their hands on you in the Balkans, it would be a long, excrutiatingly painful death.

And then Tito died... and within weeks the Ustache and Chetniks picked right up where they left off... the Third Balkan War. Much of that history involved regular border clashes with Greece, but I don't remember Greece doing much of anything in the final Balkan War that we got an invitation to attend. I also don't recall seeing any British Empire weapons in all the weapons we seized in the UNPAs that would have been fed .303 British

That's one UN mission that appears to have succeeded - 30 years later and the reorganized Balkan nations seem to be pretty much at peace. Quit a few guys who did tours over there have gone back to see what Medak looks like now, the Maslenica Bridge, Dragovic Road, etc. They had no concerns with taking their wives and kids with them, those who took them along.

Tito must have been as masterful a leader/dictator to bottle all that hatred up, have them living in peace together while dancing around playing coy to avoid being consumed by the Soviet bear. All while stocking Yugoslavia with species of wild game to satisfy his passion for hunting. He's probably also responsible for Serbia becoming very good at manufacturing military arms and ammunition after WWII.

Anyways, those 190 grain .303 bullets currently offered for sale by PP are new manufacture and well past the age of the Hurricane fighter aircraft.

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Originally Posted by ssgross

I have plenty of 303 projectiles on hand but my brass is finally showing its age.

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I still have enough HXP left that I think will satisfy any need I have for actual military ball until I go for the long dirt nap, but with PP's unprimed new brass easily available I wouldn't even buy it with an eye towards being a source of high quality .303 British brass.

PP's commercial unprimed cases are (in my opinion and that of others) about as good as you can hope for. Quite a few years ago when I started chasing after the best grouping jacketed load I could develop for my Long Branch, I went over brass samples from various military samples from WWII, Korea, and the Cold War era as well as commercial cases from Winchester, etc.

After weighing them all, case capacity, rim dimensions, etc. the HXP and PP commercial unprimed brass turned out to be pretty much clones of the military ball, particularly rim dimensions.

There was a sale on about the time I finished mucking around doing that comparison, and I stocked up on a lifetime supply of PP's .303 British brass. Then went about expanding the necks with a .33 M die and then a false shoulder that results in a light crush fit when chambering before the first firing - no such thing as the initial stressing of the brass with the first shot after that. As most of my shooting these days is with cast bullets rather than jacketed at something approaching service ammunition levels, I do think I'm fixed for life.

I also anneal after each firing while prepping for the next reload; in any case, I don't expect to be needing more cases whether from ball ammo like this HXP or commercial from PP.

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Originally Posted by Rick

PP's commercial unprimed cases are (in my opinion and that of others) about as good as you can hope for. Quite a few years ago when I started chasing after the best grouping jacketed load I could develop for my Long Branch, I went over brass samples from various military samples from WWII, Korea, and the Cold War era as well as commercial cases from Winchester, etc.

After weighing them all, case capacity, rim dimensions, etc. the HXP and PP commercial unprimed brass turned out to be pretty much clones of the military ball, particularly rim dimensions.

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SAAMI brass is one of my "pet hates" - why should a commercial organisation have the power to redefine the specification and standards of ammunition that was in use for decades before they were founded in 1926 ?

The problem is that SAAMI decide to 'throw' 303 into the standard US 30 cal category and use 30 cal dimension which were at odds with the British Military specifications.

We should also remember that manufacturers will work towards the bottom end of the specifications - if they can save 100th of an ounce (or a 1000th of an ounce) on every case produced they will save brass to the tune of $ millions every year - why would they use more materials than they need to ?

Lets look at just a couple of dimensons :

SAAMI 303 minimum rim-thickness is 0.054" / Max 0.064" so what do the US manufacturers do - they tend to produce to around 0.056"-0.058" which allows for tool wear which may produce 0.060" or even 0.054"

The British Military specification was a Minimum of 0.058" / Max 0.064" and PP production tends to be between 0.060" and 0.063"

This means that not only would much of the US commercial SAAMI production have been rejected as undersize, but it also actually increases the 'effective' headspace.

Ed Horton did a lot of investigaton into this and a photo he used to illustrate it shows that indeed "a picture is worth a 1000 words"

You guess which one is PP and which is Win.


Another of Ed's pictures shows the difference between a PP (Prvi Partisan) case wall thickness and a Win case wall thickness.

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

SAAMI brass is one of my "pet hates" - why should a commercial organisation have the power to redefine the specification and standards of ammunition that was in use for decades before they were founded in 1926 ?

The problem is that SAAMI decide to 'throw' 303 into the standard US 30 cal category and use 30 cal dimension which were at odds with the Britishicon Military specifications.

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There's yet another Lee Enfield anomaly.

To add context, American manufacturers were manufacturing the Winchester 1895 lever action and Savage a similar lever action chambered in .303 British long before for the American market - more likely than not aimed at sales to Americans/immigrants who felt ties to the Empire and its relatively new back then .303 British cartridge.

Meanwhile, earlier in 1893, the US military with their choices being between the British Lee Enfield, the German Mauser, and the Krag-Jorgeson rifle, chose the Krag-Jorgeson chambered in what was then named the ".30 U.S." We mostly refer to it now as the 30-40 Krag - my Grandfather's Winchester Model 95 manufactured in 1898 is roll marked "30 U.S." on the barrel.

Most apparently agree that the 30/40 is a blatant copy of the .303 British along with some design changes for one reason or another - but in performance there is little to nothing in the way of ballistics between the two.

Related to your observations about SAAMI's specifications, back in 1893 when the US chose the Krag-Jorgenson rifle and the 30 U.S. chambering, while watching the Empire's wars being fought with the relatively new and advanced .303 caliber .303 British, the Americans at their arsenals were happy to closely copy the .303 case - but they rejected the .303 bullet caliber and for whatever reason decided to invent the .003" smaller .30 caliber for military use in the new bolt action military rifles. Two years later in 1895 while Springfield was churning out bolt action rifles in 30 U.S. Winchester offered their lever action in 30 U.S. It was three years later they offered the 1895 in .303 British as well.

SAAMI, if I remember correctly, specifies the same rim thickness for the 30 U.S./30-40 Krag as they specify for the .303 British. Did they pick that up from US arms and ammunition manufacturing of .303 British, that Winchester (and Savage followed) began in 1895? While Winchester was probably manufacturing cartridge cases to reload both the new 30 U.S. and .303 British at the same time?

Is Winchester back in 1895 the guilty culprit that established the American criteria for what America decided the dimensions of .303 British cases should be?

So it would be of academic interest to see chamber drawings for those Winchester and Savage lever actions chambered in .303 British LONG before the beginnings of WWI and even in the case of the Model 95, the Boer Wars. I'm need to get some work done, so I can't run downstairs and compare rim dimensions for the 30 U.S. versus .303 British, or measure the rims of British WW1 ball versus some ammunition for my 1895 from the 1920s that came to me along with my grandfather's rifle. But there's some interesting thoughts:

What are Winchester's chamber dimensions in 1898 for their .303 British chambering look like in comparison to the British for the Lee Metford (?) of the same time? And what do the cartridge case measurements from American manufactured .303 British in 1895 compare to British ammunition of the same period?

Were the differences in dimensions started right from the moment in 1893 that the US military replicated the .303 British with the American 30 U.S. chambering and case and American ammunition manufacturers decided to make those two identical rims the same thickness?

I've seen Ed Horton's pictures here and elsewhere, and I also used the same Casemaster setup to similarly gather dimensions for comparison.

I do believe that for reloaders, the PP unprimed cases are the foundation for reloading the best ammunition for .303 British rifles.

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Originally Posted by Rick

To add context, American manufacturers were manufacturing the Winchester 1895 lever action and Savage a similar lever action chambered in .303 British

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I was always of the understanding that the Savage 303 was a very different round to the British 303 - is that not true and Savage produced both types ?


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3Britiah-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

I was always of the understanding that the Savage 303 was a very different round to the British 303 - is that not true and Savage produced both types ?

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You are more likely to be correct than I am. I am pretty sure I'm right in believing the .303 Savage was the proprietary cartridge Arthur Savage chambered his Model 99 in. But I thought that Savage also added the .303 British as well, sometime in the early years. I am probably wrong on that. I really don't have too much interest in lever actions other than the ones in the family that have passed to me through wills.

However, at the Kalispell gun show two weekends ago, I saw a very new looking Savage 99 in .358 Winchester that I would have bought on the spot without any haggling 25+ years ago, when I ultimately decided to have my gunsmith friend take a NIB Browning BLR chambered in .308 and convert it to a slightly longer barrelled .358 Winchester. My then live-in girlfriend, now my wife is right handed but left eye dominant and likes hunting as much as I do. As she wasn't a sure thing keeper at the time, I wanted to get her a rifle she could use left handed for moose, elk, deer, etc that I could use as well if she didn't turn out to be a keeper.

They do look to be very nice, trim, easy carrying rifles. You see more Savage 99s still headed out hunting in Canada these days than you see Lee Enfields in a truck - at least in the southern portions of Canada.

There's still confusion to this day over the rimmed .303 Savage produced in 1895 and the rimless .300 Savage produced a quarter of a century later. Both fire .308" bullets but the less powerful .303 Savage was a failed attempt by Savage to produce a military cartridge. Savage 99 rifles were/are very popular in Canada and over the years I owned three of them: a .22 Savage High Power, a .300 Savage, and a .284 Winchester. I took a lot of game with the .284 and enjoyed it and other lever action rifles due to also being right-handed but left-eye dominant.

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Originally Posted by Sapper740

There's still confusion to this day over the rimmed .303 Savage produced in 1895 and the rimless .300 Savage produced a quarter of a century later. Both fire .308" bullets but the less powerful .303 Savage was a failed attempt by Savage to produce a military cartridge. Savage 99 rifles were/are very popular in Canada and over the years I owned three of them: a .22 Savage High Power, a .300 Savage, and a .284 Winchester. I took a lot of game with the .284 and enjoyed it and other lever action rifles due to also being right-handed but left-eye dominant.

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That is my understanding, but Rick confused me by calling the "American 303" (Savage) British 303, when they are dimensionally miles apart.

Hopefully that will clear up any confusion for future readers of the thread who think they can use "good ole 'merican manfactured" Savage 303 in a Lee enfield

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Originally Posted by Sapper740

also being right-handed but left-eye dominant

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Welcome! there aren't many of us. I bet you can shoot right handed also just as well, even if it feels a bit unnatural. My left eye dominance is very slight, but habits like shooting left handed, playing pool left handed, etc. are turned into stone when we are young. My son turned out left handed, and right eye dominant. He looks painfully awkward and unnatural shooting right or left handed, but gets it on target and usually holds a tight group.
I did build a custom LH Remington 700 for f-class and, to tell you the truth, I never really liked it. The bolt is long enough one needs to come off anyway or be hit in the mouth, so it's not all as convenient as I hoped. I could see enjoying a LH 22lr, but I usually load one round at a time and it sure is more convenient to be looking into the chamber without moving. I did see a custom shop making 700 pattern actions offering LH bolt with right hand ejection, but I couldn't justify the price tag at the time.
Sorry for being far off topic.

That PPU brass is indeed readily available, but right now at Grafs (usually one of the cheapest places) its .83-.87 per round, and that HXP just cost me .81 per round. Given the cost of primers and powder, I think I just made out pretty good.
In the past, I have used HXP 30-06 with much improvement after pulling, dumping and re-metering the charges before matches. I would NOT do this for loose rounds of unknown/mixed lot numbers. For plinking it does just fine as is. LC ball (currently annually available at CMP) comparatively has slightly tighter consistency of charges, at least in my limited experience and small sample size (of ~100 rounds tested, chosen random from the same can).

One similarity I've noticed is that my WW Super (Winchester Western) .303 British brass has the chamfered rim same as military .303 British brass. Several other manufacturers didn't take the extra step to chamfer the rim which has been touted as a possible cause of rimlock. I've compared the WW Super and HXP rims under a magnifying glass and they look identical causing me to wonder if Olin which has had uninterrupted ownership of the WW line of ammunition since 1935 used the same equipment and manufacturing process as HXP since they purchased Winchester ammunition equipment?

Looks pretty good. We'll see how it shoots.

L & S, I'm still waiting on mine. I paid on April 4th and haven't received an 'item shipped' notification. I hope they didn't run out.

Might want to check with them; I ordered on 7 Apr and it's already delivered.

Ordered on 3/27, Sapper, just arrived this afternoon. They're still listing it today, so I'd hope they still have some. I did get order confirmation within three days, if I recall, but took them several days more to indicate that it had been shipped.

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Originally Posted by ssgross

Welcome! there aren't many of us. I bet you can shoot right handed also just as well, even if it feels a bit unnatural. My left eye dominance is very slight, but habits like shooting left handed, playing pool left handed, etc. are turned into stone when we are young.

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Very true. The visual acuity difference between my left and right eyes is significant and I just naturally gravitated to shooting from my left shoulder. I can shoot from my right shoulder but only if there are optical sights mounted and are raised higher above the barrel than usual so I can my left eye in line with the sight. Can't do that with iron sights so I have to struggle with manipulating the bolt with my left hand when shooting off-hand or if prone let the muzzle rest on my shooting pad while operating the bolt with my right hand. It's clumsy but all I can do without having to reshoulder the rifle after every shot and regain the sight picture.

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Originally Posted by ssgross

Welcome! there aren't many of us. I bet you can shoot right handed also just as well, even if it feels a bit unnatural.

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I'm right-handed, and left-eye dominant. I didn't know it wasn't normal to close my left eye to shoot until I later became a firearms instructor in the Navy. I've been shooting handguns, rifles, and shotguns nearly everyday and the only time I even consider it a handicap is shotgunning aerial targets from the left side.

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Originally Posted by MAC702

I'm right-handed, and left-eye dominant.

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Same here. An additional annoyance is that the right eye is the better of the two. Really only affects my handgun shooting, though.

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Originally Posted by MAC702

I'm right-handed, and left-eye dominant. I didn't know it wasn't normal to close my left eye to shoot until I later became a firearms instructor in the Navy. I've been shooting handguns, rifles, and shotguns nearly everyday and the only time I even consider it a handicap is shotgunning aerial targets from the left side.

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There are a couple double rifle safari guns in the National Firearms Museum up the road that are curiously made for folks like us - right handed weapons but the wrist of the stock snakes out to the right and back to enable a right hander to shoot with their left eye. They are high dollar, exquisite pieces, engraved all over with wood so beautiful you will want to shed a tear when you see it. Alas they were probably commissioned for a one time trip by a filthy rich patron who thought he had to have it and was convinced he couldn't shoot well otherwise. Alas I can't seem to find a picture of one. Guess you'll have to go see it for yourself. Hollar' if you are in town!

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Originally Posted by ssgross

the wrist of the stock snakes out to the right and back to enable a right hander to shoot with their left eye.

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Some of those were a direct result of veterans of the great war returning with only one serviceable eye. That was something that surprised me to find out years ago...before it was lost to time.

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Originally Posted by Low & Slow

Ordered on 3/27, Sapper, just arrived this afternoon. They're still listing it today, so I'd hope they still have some. I did get order confirmation within three days, if I recall, but took them several days more to indicate that it had been shipped.

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Ammo has been shipped!

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Originally Posted by Sapper740

Ammo has been shipped!

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Glad that's on the way finally. Free shipping didn't hurt a bit, did it?

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Originally Posted by Low & Slow

Free shipping didn't hurt a bit, did it?

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ordered April 7. mine shipped this morning. It does clearly state on the site up to 3 days for processing. no complaints at all.

Ammo has arrived! Three of the four cans are the same case lot which is nice.

Ah, good!

Got some of the '71 with the vintage bandoliers. The HXP ammo looks great, and just like the WW2 Win I picked up last winter.

The impracticality of the rimmed case in stripper clips is clear to see. Between removal from the bandolier and loading into the rifle, it is necessary at least half the time to restack the cases correctly to avoid feed problems. No big deal I guess for cadets but hardly desirable in a combat situation.

1st bandolier checked had a MkII charger in it.

Today I shot 50 rounds of 1975 HXP in a couple of my No 1, Mk III Enfields. It generally shot well, the only minor issue was that occasionally a cartridge would stick a bit requiring me to pull back on the bolt a bit harder.

Keep an eye on the clips if you happen across a 5 hole one on the sides that is WWI vintage and worth a good amount of $'s I found about 10 in the lot I have collected over the years never noticed them till I saw one for sale on fleabay.
I also have @50 of the other WW1 type with the cross instead of the holes on the bottom.

Looks like the price went up.

Indeed. From 81 to 88 cents per round.

Still....it will move.

Works out to $508/Aud/spam can.
At a rough exchange rate of .67 cents Aud/USD Aud $1.69 cents per round the stuff is getting expensive.

I though when my mate years ago bought a unopened MF spam can for $175/Aud that was expensive mind you it was a long time ago, WWI MKVI rounds can go for @$4 ea the MkII cordites are a bit more.
Our new laws both firearms & cartridge collecting have pretty much destroyed the point of being a collector of anything more than fresh air they have totally screwed us to the wall then they have super glued us there just for good measure.
It's knocked the stuffings from all of us what I have collected over 50 years is basically worthless now perhaps maybe scrap value............!

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Our new laws both firearms & cartridge collecting have pretty much destroyed the point of being a collector of anything more than fresh air they have totally screwed us to the wall then they have super glued us there just for good measure. It's knocked the stuffings from all of us what I have collected over 50 years is basically worthless now perhaps maybe scrap value............!

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What's particularly galling about liberal governments lumping milsurps into firearms bans is how seldom they are used in crimes. I can only speak about Canada and the U.S. because those are the two countries I'm most familiar with but as far as I recollect there have only been two murders committed in the U.S. with milsurp rifles and none in Canada. Everyone remembers that JFK was shot with a Carcano Model 38, fewer might remember that Civil Rights activist Medgar Evers was shot with a M1917 Enfield rifle. When you consider the millions of military surplus rifles sold into the civilian market yet the odds of being shot by one are virtually nil. They simply aren't the weapon of choice. In countries where firearms have been banned the knife is now the weapon of choice. Seldom does a week go by when there isn't another knifing in Great Britain or Israel reported so using Lib-Think a bayonet, K-Bar, and ceremonial sword ban is soon to follow.

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Originally Posted by Sapper740

Seldom does a week go by when there isn't another knifing in Great Britain or Israel reported so using Lib-Think a bayonet, K-Bar, and ceremonial sword ban is soon to follow.

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We have not been able to buy / sell bayonets on ebay for many years.

If I look at a bayonet on Ebay USA and click buy it now, I get a message saying it cannot be sold to the UK

In the USA at the moment there is a broad rethink among rank and file liberals that maybe this is not the best time to voluntarily dis-arm and trust to the government. So far scant evidence that this attitude has bubbled up to the level of elected officials, but if things continue along current lines then you will see it.

Milsurps are not used in crimes but that is only because alternatives exist. If WW2 guns were only semi-autos in circulation, criminals would seek them out. Firepower matters.

Couple more cans of the HXP 71 came this weekend. Will see how it shoots through the Maltby with the 2-groove barrel, alongside some 1941 Winchester.

Even knocked together a funnel rig out of whatever scrap tubing I could find so that I can flush the corrosive primer residue out straight away at the range with some boiling hot water. Old school, people will think I'm crazy, LOL.

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Originally Posted by togor

Even knocked together a funnel rig out of whatever scrap tubing I could find so that I can flush the corrosive primer residue out straight away at the range with some boiling hot water.

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You suspect (or know) that this Greek HXP has the old style corrosive primers? I thought they were well gone by then?

The nice thing about when you're shooting muzzle stuffers like my .54 caliber Hawken replica, it's so easy to take the barrel out of the stock, remove the nipple, and then stick that end in a pail of your favorite solution of boiling water, and use a mop on the end of a cleaning rod to pump that boiling hot water back and forth through the barrel, rinse and repeat.

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Originally Posted by Rick

You suspect (or know) that this Greek HXP has the old style corrosive primers? I thought they were well gone by then?

The nice thing about when you're shooting muzzle stuffers like my .54 caliber Hawken replica, it's so easy to take the barrel out of the stock, remove the nipple, and then stick that end in a pail of your favorite solution of boiling water, and use a mop on the end of a cleaning rod to pump that boiling hot water back and forth through the barrel, rinse and repeat.

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Will also be shooting some '41 Winchester.

The HXP primers aren't corrosive.

Range report has the HXP grouping about the same as the '41 Winchester. Some Prvi that was downloaded about 1 grain and a 180gr FB soft point shot slightly better. We are shooting a minute of pie plate out of a good condition Maltby '42 with flip sight and war expedient 2 groove barrel.

The ammo seems to function properly and next time I will try it out of the No. 4 Mk. 1 (T).

HXP .303 has never been corrosive. Never.

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Originally Posted by limpetmine

HXP .303 has never been corrosive. Never.

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ALL ammunition is both corrosive and erosive to some extent, but certain types are far worse than others.
HXP is way down the scale.

I think someone skimmed my earlier post and thought I was using the hot water for the HXP when it was always for the '41 Winchester.

The Win .303 also gave off a nice smoke cloud, which the HXP and Prvi .303 did not.

Although on the adjacent bench my son was shooting a CMP M1 rifle and THAT HXP BALL M2 ALSO PRODUCED A NICE CLOUD.

The wartime Winchester .303 has a poor reputation for reliability. The smokiness is interesting: a smokey round which tends to reveal the firer's position would be an effective form of sabotage.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

The wartime Winchester .303 has a poor reputation for reliability

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That is being very generous - but it wasn't reliability that was the problem it was inconsistent case dimensions causing blockages and jams, it was banned from use in aircraft (not easy to clear your wing guns at 20,000 feet) and some of it was even removed from front line use 'on the ground' - and was then "relegated to practice use only."


Regulations For Army Ordnance Services
Part 7, Pamphlet No. 11
Small Arms Ammunition
(The War Office 24th February 1945)

7) .303-in. Winchester
No Winchester .303-in. ammunition is considered suitable for use in aircraft although Red Label ammunition from Lot 45 of 1941 onwards may be used in emergency. Packages containing this ammunition should bear the restrictive marking “NOT FOR USE IN AIRCRAFT”, though it is known that some has come forward without this marking. The ammunition is fit for normal ground use unless it bears an additional restrictive marking.
Lots of Winchester .303-in manufactured before Lot 45 of 1941 should be stencilled “FOR PRACTICE IN RIFLES ONLY”.




It was pretty much a repeat of the WW1 experience. The situation was so bad it was discussed in Parliament and the decision made to cancel the contracts, as by July 1916, the orders were 420,000,000 rounds in arrears, and, 50% of what had been supplied was deemed to be unusable and scrapped or relegated to 'use for practice at home only'. The other factor was the cost of the ammunition from the USA. British costs of 303 were £6- 10 shillings per 1000 whilst we were being charged £8-10 shillings per 1000 by the US manufacturers (plus we had to collect it !!!)

I have a couple boxes of Dec, 1941 Winchester .303 that I bought by mistake. Not sure I dare shoot it.

In my experience - on the range, a smokey round is usually the first round, not due to ammo but of a user who did not wipe the oil out of their bore before firing, and likely slathered it in oil before putting it away the last time.

For what it's worth I did a series of range experiments on this topic - oil in the bore and fouling. My typical regimen is to use a light oil in the bore when finished cleaning if the weapon will sit no longer than a couple months before it gets used again. I use an application of RIG grease in the bore for longer storage, wiped out and renewed annually. So, what happens if you shoot without cleaning the oil or grease out of the bore? The short answer is light smoke on the first round, and dark black fouling that looks/acts like a stain, and is only removed with something like JB paste. It's different than the carbon buildup in the corners of the grooves that you typically see with a dirtier powder like H335 (The high volume AR guys know exactly what I'm talking about). The heavier the oil/grease, the darker the stain and the harder it is to remove. I noticed NO change in accuracy with a lightly oiled or greased bore. Of course heavy grease is a bore obstruction which I'm not talking about. And an oily or highly polished chamber is DANGEROUS as it prevents the case from sticking to the chamber wall. I'm not talking about that either.
In contrast, an oil-free bore doesn't show any of this staining. The bore is usually perfectly clean after firing with perhaps, depending on the quality of the finish and type of powder (e.g. lapping from the manufacturer) a little carbon in the corners and a streak or two of copper. Similarly an oil-free garand gas cylinder will be black after firing, normal, but wipes out clean - even with dry patches - with minimal to no scrubbing at all! I keep a squirt bottle of alcohol in my range bag for the purpose, although usually I just run an alcohol patch in the bore right before departing for the range, and run a patch of oil down the bore immediately when I get home, or at the range when packing up if I'm in a hurry to get somewhere. Shooting an oil-free bore has greatly reduced my scrubbing time. I'm usually in an out of any rifle with just a few dozen passes of a bronze brush, and 3-4 patches.

Say what one will about the wartime Winchester, but it groups better out of my silly 2 groove barrel than boat tailed Prvi.

Suffice it to say the .303 rifle, as a weapons system, had many issues in its life.

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Originally Posted by togor

Say what one will about the wartime Winchester, but it groups better out of my silly 2 groove barrel than boat tailed Prvi.

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But you are comparing apples with oranges (MK7 vs Mk8z)

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

But you are comparing apples with oranges (MK7 vs Mk8z)

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It's all fruit of the same tree. I enjoy the challenge of coaxing good groups out of these rifles, even as I can view their quirks without sentimentality.

The tree you are looking at is a grafted one producing two totally different fruits.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by togor

I enjoy the challenge of coaxing good groups out of these rifles, even as I can view their quirks without sentimentality.

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My point was that you are trying to use something which was not designed for use in the Lee Enfield rifle.

The Mk7 has not only a longer parallel area to 'get a grip' on the rifling, but has an open flat bottom to give more easily sufficient up-set to engage into the rifling.

The Mk8 was designed for 'long distance' machine gun use, has an aerodynamic shape giving a very short parallel area, but also has a closed base which will not easily up-set. the use of NC propellant in a barrel that has fired cordite also produces poor accuracy.
These features are the reason that the documents of the time state :

6. The following instructions regarding the use of .303-in ammunition have been issued to users and are governed by stocks and types of ammunition and weapons in current use:-

(a) .303 in. Vickers M.G.s in M.G. Bns.

(i)Mk.8z only will be used for overhead firing.
(ii) Mixed belts, i.e. Ball, Tracer, A.P., etc., will NOT be used.
(iii) Any barrel which has fired Cordite ammunition will NOT be used for N.C.; barrels will be stamped “7” on the trunnion block and returned to R.A.O.C. through normal channels.
(iv) Barrel life for N.C. will be assessed by unit armourers using the appropriate gauges.

(b) .303 in. Vickers M.G.s in A.F.V.s.

Here the overhead fire problem is not considered; the range is usually less than is the case with ground M.G.s. tracer ammunition is required as an aid to fire control, and prolonged fire programmes are not envisaged. Special mixed belts of Mk.8z and Tracer are provided in boxes clearly marked “For use in A.F.V.s only”. The reduced life of the barrels is accepted.

(c) Light M.G.s.

Cordite ammunition normally will be used. N.C. ammunition, however, gives a relatively small flash at night and if the Bren is being used for a special purpose, e.g., on a patrol, its use is permitted.

(d) Rifles.

N.C. ammunition will not be used in rifles except in such circumstances as quoted in para. “(c)”
above, if necessity should arise.

7. Belt packed S.A.A. for M.G.s is packed in boxes which are clearly marked with labels or stenciling indicating its proper use. It will never be de-belted and used for practice purposes in L.M.G.s or rifles.





Even poor quality Mk7 will perform better than good quality Mk8z

(Apologies for the poor quality of the bullet sectioning - I only had a hammer and a blunt hacksaw with a bent blade.)

My experience with the current batch of HXP, all 1971 dated and from the same bandolier: I shot several 100 yard 5 shot groups through 3 different rifles yesterday, a Fulton Regulated BSA No.1 Mk III, a Home Guard Ross MkIII, and a Long Branch to see how accurate the ammunition was and to check velocities. Temperature was 83 F., humidity 63%, and elevation 0f 594' asl. Wind was 7-8 mph from 12 o'clock.

Through the BSA 5 shots gave an average velocity of 2484.9 fps, std dev 9.9 and 3 MOA.
Through the Long Branch 5 shots gave an average velocity of 2505 fps std dev 39.5! (more on this later) and 4 MOA caused by the old ammunition, I believe.
Through the Ross 7 shots gave an average velocity of 2564.8 fps and a std dev of 16.6 and 2 MOA.

Higher velocities were expected through the Ross's 30 1/2" barrel but the average velocity from the the other rifle's barrels was higher than expected.

These are all rifles that regularly shoot 1 to 1 1/2 MOA with handloads.

With the Long Branch the extreme spread of the ammunition's velocities was 105.2 fps and a pierced, flattened primer was among the cases, perhaps caused by excessive pressure? I've fired the Long Branch hundreds of times without this problem previously. The individual velocities of the 5 shots were:

2522.5
2520.1
2561.8
2463.8
2456.6

My concern is that the old ammo is creating pressure excursions from deteriorating powder possibly? Through the decades of shooting .303 British ammunition and rifles I've experience both incipient and actual head seperations from handloads but never a pierced primer. Have a look at the pictures and let me know what you think.

Sapper740
Handloads are different beasts to Milsurp. No comparison possible.
The pierced primer looks to me as though the primer has backed out been pierced by a slightly long firing pin before being pushed back by the case moving back onto the bolthead.
A combination of things giving the appearance of an overload. The Military moved the ammo on after a set time if not used. You don't know how well it was stored after leaving the Military.
Check your head space and measure the HXP rim thickness. Max on one and Min on the other could be all the problem.

I too shot some of the HXP recently, along with some downloaded Prvi with 174 BTFMJs swapped for 180 FBSP, and some 1941 Winchester.

No pierced primers. All of the rims were right at .060", some Win '41 primers leaked, and the Win brass does bulge just north of the case web, where the Prvi and HXP do not.

I will examine the HXP more carefully before running it in the very collectible, all-original (T).

Edit: I attribute the '41 Win primer leakage to poor sealing, possibly a result of the 4 stab crimping process. I believe that those cases could be reprimed and they would not leak, but they are still prone to bulging in front of the web and look to be single use. The bullets are good however and that is the toughest component to acquire.

Winchester brass is made to SAAMI specs not to the British Military specs. ( metal and size)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bindi2

The Military moved the ammo on after a set time if not used. You don't know how well it was stored after leaving the Military.

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Indeed, the British military withdrew all ammunition from 'front line use' once it reached 10 years old. After 10 years (stored on the tropics) or 15 years (stored in temperate climates) it could / did become inconsistent - particularly the primers - and it was relegated to 'practice use only' on the ranges.

You (we) are now using 50+ year old ammunition and wonder why it, smokes a bit, pierces the odd primer, splits the odd case etc etc.

When using old milsurp ammunition - set yourself up with low expectations and you will not then be dissapointed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by togor

No pierced primers. All of the rims were right at .060", some Win '41 primers leaked

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Once the rounds started exuding it was the death sentence - irrespective of age.

They would be de-bulleted and fired off and the brass and bullets sent for recycling.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

Once the rounds started exuding it was the death sentence - irrespective of age.

They would be de-bulleted and fired off and the brass and bullets sent for recycling.

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During EOD training we were warned of the extreme dangers of sweating Dynamite which could detonate at the slightest shock. One of our duties was to lend aid to Civilian authorities and there was always the chance of some spelunkers chancing upon an old case of the stuff given British Columbia's extensive mining history. Interestingly, as a child we were bombarded with regular PSA's on television regarding the dangers blasting caps represented. The ads were so common my brothers and I thought they must be laying around all over the place so we searched for some every weekend. Never found any buy sure as sh!t had we found one we would have figured out a way to set it off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

Once the rounds started exuding it was the death sentence - irrespective of age.

They would be de-bulleted and fired off and the brass and bullets sent for recycling.

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I recall reading in this forum that some degree of primer leakage was normal for .303 military ammunition, especially in wartime. Is it not so?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by togor

I recall reading in this forum that some degree of primer leakage was normal for .303 military ammunition, especially in wartime. Is it not so?

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You can never tell 'what those foreigner armies get up to ', but as you can see from the document I posted - the British army, on its regular inspections, would reject rounds exhibiting signs of corrosion or exudation and they would be sentenced for scrap / disposal.

There are pages and pages and pages in the armourers manuals explaining when, where and how often ammunition must be checked and 'proved' (quantities from each batch fired and performance measured)

It's not much use having 10 million rounds in the stores if half of it is beyond its use by date, has swollen cases, leaking primers and, if it actually fires, is innacurate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

Indeed, the British military withdrew all ammunition from 'front line use' once it reached 10 years old.

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We too withdraw ten year old ammo to either training or disposal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sapper740

blasting caps Never found any buy sure as sh!t had we found one we would have figured out a way to set it off.

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And now you know that wouldn't have been too hard. Just as well you never found any.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

You can never tell 'what those foreigner armies get up to ', but as you can see from the document I posted - the British army, on its regular inspections, would reject rounds exhibiting signs of corrosion or exudation and they would be sentenced for scrap / disposal.

There are pages and pages and pages in the armourers manuals explaining when, where and how often ammunition must be checked and 'proved' (quantities from each batch fired and performance measured)

It's not much use having 10 million rounds in the stores if half of it is beyond its use by date, has swollen cases, leaking primers and, if it actually fires, is innacurate.

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Fair enough as far as that goes. Very sensible.

But from what I can tell, as a reloader and engineer, the 1941 Winchester primers are very hard, and the 4 primer stabs are fairly aggressive. I think the primers in some cases are getting deformed enough to permit small amounts of leakage. Most likely it was this way from the beginning.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by togor

Fair enough as far as that goes. Very sensible.

But from what I can tell, as a reloader and engineer, the 1941 Winchester primers are very hard, and the 4 primer stabs are fairly aggressive. I think the primers in some cases are getting deformed enough to permit small amounts of leakage. Most likely it was this way from the beginning.

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Winchester ammunition has a very poor reputation in Britain.

Lots prior to 1941 were banned from front line use and relegated for 'practice use only' and post 1941 the dimensional variation meant, except for the Red Label, it was forbidden to be used in aircraft, but could be used by infantry.


Attachment 139472Attachment 139473Attachment 139474

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sapper740

During EOD training we were warned of the extreme dangers of sweating Dynamite which could detonate at the slightest shock. One of our duties was to lend aid to Civilian authorities and there was always the chance of some spelunkers chancing upon an old case of the stuff given British Columbia's extensive mining history. Interestingly, as a child we were bombarded with regular PSA's on television regarding the dangers blasting caps represented. The ads were so common my brothers and I thought they must be laying around all over the place so we searched for some every weekend. Never found any buy sure as sh!t had we found one we would have figured out a way to set it off.

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I knew a gent who grew up on the north coast and whose childhood friend found some caps and invited him to come along for the festivities. For some reason he didn't go and his friend didn't come back, at least not alive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

I knew a gent who grew up on the north coast and whose childhood friend found some caps and invited him to come along for the festivities. For some reason he didn't go and his friend didn't come back, at least not alive.

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I think the public service announcements had the opposite effect of what was intended. As kids we were always looking for things that go "BOOM", especially after the Karens in the government banned firecrackers so blasting caps sounded like a viable option. At the age of 12 my friends and I had figured out how to make black powder although it was such a coarse mixture that it would never burn quickly so no "BOOM". My friends and I weren't about to give up on making BOOMS and in a stroke of luck while exploring an unmanned railway Speeder shed found a case of track torpedoes or railway detonators as they are known in Europe. Life was good again as we explored all the ways of setting them off. They are tremendously load as required for an engineer to hear them over the noise of a rumbling locomotive so you can imagine the Police switchboard lighting up as we reenacted WWII all over the North Shore of Vancouver. Great fun!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sapper740

Interestingly, as a child we were bombarded with regular PSA's on television regarding the dangers blasting caps represented. The ads were so common my brothers and I thought they must be laying around all over the place so we searched for some every weekend. Never found any buy sure as sh!t had we found one we would have figured out a way to set it off.

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I grew up in a mining town and shortly after high school worked as a blaster in the Sullivan Mine, the largest lead, zinc, and silver mine in the world at the time - over 250 miles of operating small gauge railway spread over the various levels. EVERYBODY in that mine had access to both caps as well as Forcite, Xactex, det cord etc in various sizes and flavors. We had no locked and audited magazines underground: it was just stacked close to where we needed to access it.

I have no doubt many lunch boxes left work with a cap and stick or two or perhaps a few dozen feet of B-line. There were regular stories of somebody being too close when one of their "C.I.L. Spinners" went off and a few troublesome trees or deadfall got sorted out with a cap and B-line.

Despite that amount of access, I don't recall anyone talking about somebody finding abandoned/stolen caps and explosives. Deliberate acts - there was a guy who committed suicide in his second floor apartment with a stick or two in the nearby town of Cranbrook in the later 70's. Luckily for everyone who lived around him, police had been called and managed to evacuate the rest of the apartment building before he decided to assume room temperature.

The real risk to kids were the CPR's railroad torpedoes, intended for placement on the top of the rail and held there by wire jaws until a locomotive's wheels rolled over it. They were easy to find along the tracks that ran above town at pullout points where linemen left their scooters and tools. The obvious solution was to shoot them from a distance with our Cooey Model 39 .22s; but more often than not we didn't get the expected results.

So being enterprising and thoughtful, we set them off by setting them on a rock and then dropping rocks on them from above on a trestle. I did that once and we all agreed afterwards that it was not the best of ideas.

A friend of ours, Terry, became known througout his time in High School as 'Fingers' - because he had only stubs of his thumb and little finger remaining on his right hand after playing around with what I think was a rail torpedo. Terry was a great guy, tough as nails, funny, a great friend, but never developed a sensible attitude towards danger - he was killed falling a few years after high school doing domino falling, working alone in the bush as a gypo logger.

Some batches of HXP have been found to have random WW2 corrosive rounds packed in the mix.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mk VII

Some batches of HXP have been found to have random WW2 corrosive rounds packed in the mix.

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Would be cool to see a few of those diabolical cordite rounds mixed in with the virtuous HXP.