cop abuse or just cop stupid?

Here in MI cops stop a vehicle for expired plates, a misdomeanor, 3 or 4 in vehical. One, a 16 yr. old gets out and runs (NOT the driver) and the others stay put. A cop takes after him, finaly catchs up but for some reason has to use his taser. The kid dies before he gets to hospital. Seems he had slight mental problems and some pysical also, of course the cop couldn't know this. But why chase him anyway, the others could be interagated to give him up IF it turns out the kid was wanted or whatever. Seems really dumb on the cops part, they have both been laid off for the investigation.

He could have been a fleeing armed felon that had just committed a murder. Can you imagine the headlines if that was the case and he got away?

Most cops are part of the problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave

Here in MI cops stop a vehicle for expired plates, a misdomeanor, 3 or 4 in vehical. One, a 16 yr. old gets out and runs (NOT the driver) and the others stay put. A cop takes after him, finaly catchs up but for some reason has to use his taser. The kid dies before he gets to hospital. Seems he had slight mental problems and some pysical also, of course the cop couldn't know this. But why chase him anyway, the others could be interagated to give him up IF it turns out the kid was wanted or whatever. Seems really dumb on the cops part, they have both been laid off for the investigation.

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Basic psychology.

If you want to make someone chase you, run.

There is no law that says you have to talk to the police, It is not a crime to run on foot from them if you do not wish to speak to them.

No there are situations where you are required to identify yourself to the police, traffic stops are in that category. Running from the police is often viewed as evidence of "guilty knowledge" or "suspicious activity." Fighting with the police is always a bad idea.

As to Tasers and stun guns, they were originally marketed as no lethal. I'm sorry but anything that whacks somebody with 50,000 volts might kill them. Now they are referred to as less lethal. Unfortunately a lot of cops still look on them as "non lethal" and are too quick to use them. Night sticks and saps fall in the same category IMHO.

For the record I think the police showed bad judgement in this instance. Did I ever show bad judgement when I was "on the job?" Yes but fortunately nobody died.

Tasers are prohibited weapons in New Jersey, that includes police officers. With people chocking to death, in handcuffs, due to pepper spray, they figured an electrical torture device was just asking for trouble.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave

Seems really dumb on the cops part, they have both been laid off for the investigation.

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No flame intended, but more than likely the law enforcement agents you referenced have been placed on paid leave pending an investigation. Pretty much standard practice whenever something outside the ordinary occurs. I am quite sure that if the officers you referenced did something outside of their departments policies or applicable laws of the area they operate, they will be held accountable, in criminal as well as civil court. It is unfortunate, that even if they are found to have complied with all proceedures and laws, they can still be found libel in civil court.

While there are a few bad apples in the barrel (as in all barrels) it would be nice to give the officer(s) involved the benefit of the doubt. The same benefit that is being given to the individuals in a motor vehicle with expired tags, the same benefit that is being given an individual who flees from a law enforcement agent. Let time sort this out. If the officers acted outside the scope of their authority, then they should be held accountable, but if they were only trying to protect the public, then we should give them a break.

It takes a strong individual to walk up alongside a vehicle at o-dark thirty in the morning, with nothing standing between eternity and themselves, but a protective vest and a sidearm.

"THIS WE'LL DEFEND!"

"Life has many choices... Eternity only has two!"

No indication it was dark out.
Yes, he may have been wanted but the others never fled so they could be held for questioning. And yes the cops have been suspended for investigation. But cops tend to protect their own.
I am sure it was obvious he was very young. He was NOT the driver so committed no crime, they could pick him up later, if need be. Stopped for expired plate, passenger is not responsible for that. The kid was just "struggling", so a grown man, a trained cop can't handle that without a taser?

What ever happened to 'probable cause'???

Dave, Probably cause existed the second the the kid ran from the police. I'm not suggesting how he should have been restrained but his actions generated probably cause. Rick

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Originally Posted by Dave

What ever happened to 'probable cause'???

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You must be a very honest person not to understand the dishonesty police officers experience.

Perhaps you don't realize that traffic stops are one of the top three causes of officer deaths in the line of duty? The officer may be pulling someone over for a misdemeanor but the driver thinks they got caught for the felony they committed.

Perhaps you think this was just a kid? Who do you think does most home burglaries and car thefts?

Being pulled over and fleeing the scene is probable cause.

In addition it's a misdemeanor until you flee then it becomes a felony. Depending on the juridiction an officer can use a Taser on someone committing a felony.

If I understand correctly, the one that runs is probably the one ditching the gun or drugs, isn't he?

Sure strikes me a probable cause.

While I Was A Police Officer In Phoenix Az, 21 Yrs+, We Were Required To Fill Out Field Interrogation Cards On Two Persons Per Shift. If I Attempted To Talk To A Person Walking Down The Street And They Ran, So Be It, They Do Not Have To Stop And Talk, Where No Crime Has Been Committed. Merely Runing From The Police Is Not A Crime, While Most Officers View It As Felony Runing.

Just asking the question....but I've seen police Tazers up close and personal, and you ain't hittin' NOBODY running with one at anything but contact-range! So riddle me this Batman... if the kid was running....how'd the Michigan Mountie shoot him unless he was right on top of him, and if he was that close....why nuke him?....and if wasn't running, why'd the cop light him up anyway? Inquiring minds want to know!

Hmmmm, maybe that's why there's an inquiry. The story is obviously incomplete and hopefully the investigation will answer that. As I inferred in my earlier post I think Tasers are generally a bad idea.

You ever see how much damage a 16-year old (even one 5'2") can do when cornered and out of control?

Like others here have noted:

- He ran from a routine (and valid) traffic stop

- At that point, Cops MUST regard him as wanted, has something to get rid of, and/or is potentially dangerous/armed

- They have a fraction of a second to decide.

- He refuse orders to halt even while being chased.

- He acts aggressively/uncooperatively once cornered -- and may still draw/use a concealed weapon.

Toast......

To add to what ME Harvey said; One thing from my prior LEO experience, and this is absolutely true. If you are a policeman of any stripe the person most likely to murder you is a male in his late teens to early twenties of whaterver community or group you are working with. Kids lack sense.

It's easy, If you do something to get stoped by the police, do what you are told:surrender:. they don't know you. If you do something stupid like running away:madsmile:. nothing wrong with the tazer:thup:. When the truth comes out, The kid probley died of drugs and running to fast:dunno:.

Yeah well....80,000 volts through the heart is still something to consider as well. Besides, if you live in this neck of the woods, Michigan State Cops kinda have "rep"...not deciding ahead of even a majority of the data, but that "rep" remains part of the equation.

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Originally Posted by Bill F

Most cops are part of the problem.

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That didn't take long . . . arbitrary cop bashing on the 3rd post of this thread. :bitch:

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Originally Posted by Tom in N.J.

Tasers are prohibited weapons in New Jersey, that includes police officers. With people chocking to death, in handcuffs, due to pepper spray, they figured an electrical torture device was just asking for trouble.

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But then, EVERYTHING is illegal in N.J. Unfortunately for me, Im back here for a brief time.:(

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Originally Posted by Faulkner

That didn't take long . . . arbitrary cop bashing on the 3rd post of this thread.

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Premature.....maybe. "Arbitrary"?....I don't think so. There's enough detail to date to raise at least one eyebrow.

just had a cop get on the stand and lie to convict me of a $225 wood cutting ticket.Most cops are cut from the same cloth as crooks.

It would be nice to have a link to a news story covering this incident. Does anybody have one?

Further more, classifying law enforcement agents as "dumb" or that most are cut from the same cloth as crooks is a little over the top.:thdown:

"THIS WE'LL DEFEND!"

"Life has many choices... Eternity only has two!"

What if they lie under oath?That is no honorable man.

Morning folks. Some good and many bad comments on the incident. Unless one has all the facts, and was there at the time, then one doesn't truely know.
Taser's affect folks differently, as does pepper spray. We don't know what the Police Officer saw or heard, that caused him to give chase and deploy the taser.
Newspapers are not to be trusted, as they always skew the stories. I know from first hand, as I am a Police Officer in the most violent County in Maryland; which borders Washington, D.C. The Washington Post does it's best to descredit and indict the Police without having the facts.
The thing to remember is to give the Officer's the benefit of the doubt and let their department's investigation run it's course. Unless YOU have walked in their shoes (I have) and have dealt with what they deal with on a daily basis (I have), then you can not possibly know.

Semper Fi,
Joe P

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Originally Posted by Bill F

What if they lie under oath?That is no honorable man.

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A dishonorable man indeed... for what does a man have... if he does not have his good word, but to pass judgement on all, based on the actions of a few, is short sighted. As law abiding gun owners we can all relate everytime someone uses a firearm to commit a crime. The national press is more than willing to convict all gun owners based on the dishonorable actions of a few.

"THIS WE'LL DEFEND!"

"Life has many choices.... Eternity only has two!":super:

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Originally Posted by Bill F

just had a cop get on the stand and lie to convict me of a $225 wood cutting ticket.Most cops are cut from the same cloth as crooks.

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Bill, I spent nearly half of my life in law enforcement. I'm not going to let that c**p go unchallenged by you or anybody else. I've gotten real tired of the cop bashing that goes on here. Are there cops that lie, yes, do most cops lie, no. Do I take comments like that personally you bet your a$$.

So you are defending lying under oath?Or the other cops? or just cops ?Everybody has a bad cop story.But it's all OK.Abuse under the color of the law is worse than crooks.

Obviously you didn't read my post, but I'm not surprised. I defended no one who has violated his oath, I have also seen cops go to prison for lying under oath, among other things and seen my fellow LEOs happy when they did. I took issue with your statement that most cops are crooks. You flat don't know what you're talking about.

I'm not going to accept the inference that I am or was a perjurer from you or anybody else

Bad time to be a politician or a cop. You have made your own beds.Enjoy dude.

Gee Bill it must be great to be you. By the way, I notice you never mention whether or not you actually committed the offense.

Guys, guys---I didn't mean to start a general cop bashing, I have known and liked several over the years. Hell one lived 4 doors away, a childless couple, who used to baby site our twin daughters.
I was only mentioning one particular case, which seemed not good judgement to me. I know the info was slim but so was the news article. If I see any more on it I will be back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill F

Most cops are cut from the same cloth as crooks.

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Now it's arbitrary!

BTW, my beef isn't with the LEO's....it's with Tazers! Bad science leading to horrendous outcomes with the cops stuck in the middle.

No ,I did not.That is why the cop had to lie to have me found guilty.

Tell ya what, bill, if you are mugged, assaulted, or your house is robbed, next time Call the ACLU instead of the police!
Yes, there are some bad cops, there are also bad doctors, building contractors, lawyers, plumbers, etc. (and a LOT of politicians)
I know of TWO FBI agents who lied out of their arses on the stand, but I don't believe all of them do.,

You said:

"Tell ya what, bill, if you are mugged, assaulted, or your house is robbed, next time Call the ACLU instead of the police."

Truth is calling the cops or calling ACLU is a toss up. In fact if I called the ACLU, I would probably get more results than calling the police. I have said it before, I cannot even imagine a situation where I would call the police for help.

A few weeks ago somebody got into my shop and stole about $1,000 worth of tools including a chain saw, a compressor and a impact wrench. I called my neighbors and friends and guess what? I found out there was a local teeny bopper wigger wannabe was trying to sell my tools... I went by and retrieved most of them. End of story.

The last time I called 911 was when I was driving down I-70 and saw a woman laying in the medium. She was 5 miles from the closest exit and there were no stopped cars anywhere around. By the time I got stopped I was about 1/2 mile down the interstate and had no way of getting back to help her. I called 911 and the woman operator says "what is your emergency?"

I said "I am at the XXX mile marker west bound and..."

The operator says "What direction is the vehicle traveling?"

I said "there is no direction..."

The operator interrupts and says "What direction?"

I replied "I have no clue but if you will be quiet..."

Click! They hung up on me.

I could go on for hours, and hours, and hours.

Call the cops... NEVER in my lifetime.:bitch:

Unbelievable how ignorant some folks are about law enforcment officers. Based on the predjudice shown here the same individuals may as well label all white people as Klan members and all Black people as Panthers. There is good and bad in every organization, even religous organizations and so forth. Judge a man individually by his actions. Sweeping statements made against every one in a job function is pure stupidity on the part of he who utters such a statement.

I'm sorry for the gentleman who suffered under bad LEO's, but life does not guarentee every situation will be fair. Bad people exist in every walk of life, and at times good people will suffer. Sometimes there is justice and sometimes they get away with it. Just do the best you can to uphold your own personal honor reguardless and you will be the better Man or Woman for it.

Semper Fi, Rob

You know I wonder how many of the folks that are complaining about police officers could stand up to the same judgement or scrutiny, Like honesty, efficiency, integrity, don't violate the law, never make mistakes, etc. in their own work or personal lives. I don't wish to make any accusations but just making an observation that people are not perfect. Ray

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Originally Posted by rayg

You know I wonder how many of the folks that are complaining about police officers could stand up to the same judgement or scrutiny, Like honesty, efficiency, integrity, don't violate the law, never make mistakes, etc. in their own work or personal lives. I don't wish to make any accusations but just making an observation that people are not perfect. Ray

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Oh I don't know...our company has a couple of VERY simple policies that are conveyed to every employee before they "sign on the dotted line" of their employment contract: "Integrity is like virginity....you can only lose it once!" and, "No employee ever makes the same mistake twice...you're fired the first time!" Some businesses just HAVE to operate that way...a pity it isn't a more pervasive attitude.

"Quis in Tartaro communis esse vult!"....smart guys those Romans!

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Originally Posted by John Kepler

Oh I don't know...our company has a couple of VERY simple policies that are conveyed to every employee before they "sign on the dotted line" of their employment contract: "Integrity is like virginity....you can only lose it once!" and, "No employee ever makes the same mistake twice...you're fired the first time!" Some businesses just HAVE to operate that way...a pity it isn't a more pervasive attitude.

"Quis in Tartaro communis esse vult!"....smart guys those Romans!

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Now John what you're telling me is that everyone in your company is honest, efficient, has integrity, don't violate any laws and never never makes mistakes. LOL, Ray

Yep! It's demanding work, we are necessarily a very small company (10 employees), and if you can't do what you very accurately articulated, you don't work for us. Sadly, it's hard to find people that CAN work to our exacting professional and ethical standards, but our customers demand that level of ethical professionalism from us and are willing to pay a LOT of money for our services, so that is what we provide.

There is STILL a market for integrity and excellence, and it can be done....your cynicism notwithstanding..

Not cynicism, just realism John. I comment your company if you say how your employees are. But you said it yourself, "Sadly, it's hard to find people that CAN work to our exacting professional and ethical standards " Ray

I said it was hard...you implied that it's impossible. That's where the cynicism comes in.

John, what kind of work does your company do? Ray

If it’s any consolation I have seen the work force in my fields, consturtion and ranching get very very bad also. I hire young fellows who have not been taught even the basics buy there parents. We are outnumbered big time. I wonder if this is how Rome fell?

Rome Fell:

Because by the 1st Century B.C. long wars kept the free small farmers in the Army for so long that they lost all their property to unscrupulous big landlords.

Because its military successes brought so many slaves into the empire that the only work for free people was in the Army or Civil Service.

Because the combination of the two situations above had almost the entire free population of the city of Rome on welfare (Bread and Circuses) by the 2nd Century A.D.

Because the Imperial families that ran the Empire too often behaved like the Corroleone family.

Because the professional military was never able to really keep up with the defense requirements of the Empire because the population of the Empire was actually shrinking by the 3rd Century A.D. largely because the people were in dispair because of all the reasons mentioned above, and those people available were often not willing to join because of the hardships involved. This resulted eventually in the enlistment of large numbers of "barbarians" into the Roman military

Because the Army was more loyal to its commanders than to the nation.

Last but far from least because every nation, Especially every empire, including this one, eventually dies.

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Originally Posted by rayg

John, what kind of work does your company do? Ray

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We are an engineering services company, dealing primarily in the iron and steel industry. They call us when BAD things happen!

Sounds like your company trouble shoots and fixes prolems.

I just relalized I mis-spelled "commend" when I said I "comment" your company if you say how your employees are.
I think you know what I meant, Ray

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rayg

Sounds like your company trouble shoots and fixes prolems.

I just relalized I mis-spelled "commend" when I said I "comment" your company if you say how your employees are.
I think you know what I meant, Ray

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You got it in one Ray! Often, we are employed by firms that are fierce competitors, and the nature of our "problem solving" involves getting hip-deep into very sensitive, proprietary company information that other customers of ours would pay dearly to know. We work for both and they HAVE to have complete confidence that the information we hold is totally safe in a way not covered by 100+ page confidentiality agreements (I sign those too!). Only the high level of integrity in our people makes that possible...has for 120 years!

"It takes 3 years to build a ship....3 Centuries to build a tradition"! Adm. A.E. Cunningham RN

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Originally Posted by Bill F

just had a cop get on the stand and lie to convict me of a $225 wood cutting ticket.Most cops are cut from the same cloth as crooks.

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I hate McDonald's employees. All of them. :thdown: A few years ago I was in a hurry trying to get to Memphis and hadn't had time to eat all day. Saw the sign and got off the Interstate to do a quick run through the drive thru at McDonald's. Ordered a Value Meal #6, double cheeseburger and fries with a Diet Coke. Got to the window, paid the pimple faced teenager, grabbed my bag and hit the Interstate again. Opened my bag and the little idiot had given me a #5, two cheeseburgers with fries with a Dr. Pepper. What a little dweeb, ruined my whole day. I've never been back to a McDonald's since because I know they're all idiots after my one mishap, they're all cut from the same cloth. :bitch:

Certain agencies here in CA have no problems using the Taser as a compliance tool. If the police pull you over and want you to sit on the curb, for example, and you don't want to do that, you will be tasered. That's not what the Taser was designed for.

Just curious, what would you do if a person refused to get out of a car where he could be in reach a weapon while in the car and putting you in danger? Would you just leave him in there or physically remove him and possible cause injury to him or you? Ray

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rayg

Just curious, what would you do if a person refused to get out of a car where he could be in reach a weapon while in the car and putting you in danger? Would you just leave him in there or physically remove him and possible cause injury to him or you? Ray

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Just curious....would you feel justified in killing him because he refused to comply with your stupid demands? A Tazer is NOT a "non-lethal" device....it can and does kill! Just because someone tells you to go to hell is NO justification for killing them....I don't care what you do for a living!

"The most appropriate answer to a nosey question is "Go to Hell!"! R.A. Heinlein

John you didn't answer the question I asked. What would you do if he refused to get out of the car? Ray

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rayg

Just curious, what would you do if a person refused to get out of a car where he could be in reach a weapon while in the car and putting you in danger? Would you just leave him in there or physically remove him and possible cause injury to him or you? Ray

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This is a tough one. I have been there and done that more than once. Two policemen were shot to death in a similar situation just this month. A wrestling match in the front seat of a car is very difficult I can tell you, even if you have back up. I personally feel for officers who have to patrol alone and have to deal with this, especially in rural settings where backup may be a half hour away. In pre stun gun days the practice often was to just wait 'em out, especially if you were patrolling alone.

I agree with John Kepler on this though. Anytime you use a Taser, stun gun or even pepper spray you run the risk of unintentionally killing someone. These devices are definately NOT non "non-lethal," even though they were marketed that way originally. As the deaths mounted the designation was changed to "less lethal." I personally don't like these devices. If you are a cop they are just one more thing that can get you in trouble.

Clarification - when I mentioned the traffic stop (above), I was referring to their command to sit on the curb after you've complied and gotten out of the car (as opposed to refusing to get out).

Check this out: YouTube - Driver Gets Tasered For Being Slow

Egotistical, swaggering cops will often tend to go overboard with their tools, and those outrageous overreactions will be fully sanctioned by their slavish sycophants... blubbering on about how "dangerous" police work is, and how it's necessary to let the nice policeman tase children, disabled elderly persons, and everyone in between- because all the nice policeman wants, when he and six of his buddies are subduing 57 year old wheelchair-bound grandmothers, or lost middleaged foriegners, is to "be able to go home at night".

Note the "bravado" that cops often display when subduing unarmed and disabled persons, and how fleet their feet are when some nutcase starts shooting up a school with pistols; running, as fast as their jackboots will carry them, behind the nearest concrete building to carefully plan their 12-man assault in compliance with the one prime objective: "officer safety."

Cops aren't any more law-abiding than the average citizen, either.

Cops assault a building while the bad guys are inside, I don’t think so. They are too busy wetting their pants.

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Originally Posted by rayg

John you didn't answer the question I asked. What would you do if he refused to get out of the car? Ray

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Actually Ray...I did answer your question....you just didn't like the answer! But to play along, I'd ask myself if he REALLY needs to be out of the car. If the answer is yes, then I whistle-up enough muscle to get him out of the car bodily. If the situation doesn't rate pulling my gun....it doesn't rate pulling out a Tazer....they are BOTH "deadly force"...just one is a lot less predictable (and correspondingly more out of intelligent control) than the other.

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Originally Posted by Bill F

Cops assault a building while the bad guys are inside, I don’t think so. They are too busy wetting their pants.

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Ok guys, that's it. Having gone from crook to coward I think I will leave you guys to yourselves.

Force may be used to:

1) Defend yourself or someone else from an attacker
2) Gain compliance with a lawful order
3) Affect custody
4) Stop a fleeing felon when there is substantial risk to the general public

We are taught that the use of force starts when we use "verbal persuasion", then physical strengths and holds, use of baton, chemical agents, less-lethal projectiles and other immobilization devises (tasers) and then firearms. We are not required to progress through the steps from lowest to highest. We can use that force that is needed for the above four. We have to read the need in less than the time it takes to count to two.

This taser situation falls under gaining compliance with a lawful order and affecting custody. Too many people look at what started the incident and say that was the cause. What started the incident, only started it. What finished it was one of the above listed four being threatened.

For instance; a subject very loud and agitated while the officer is conducting an FI on him. The officer tells the subject to turn around to be placed in handcuffs. The subject refuses and becomes more agitated. The officer sprays him with O/C and then places him in cuffs. The officer did not spray him because he was agitated, he sprayed him because he refused a lawful order to be placed in handcuffs for his and the officer's safety. Now you cop haters will say the cop sprayed him because he was agitated and he is a badge heavy cop and cut from the same cloth as the crook.

I've been a cop for way too many years and I can assure all of you that if a traffic stop was made and made with PC and one of the subjects leg bailed from the stop, less-lethal is authorized in nearly all agencies across the world. Cops are like dogs, run and we'll chase you.

Nobody has been able to say just what happened when the cop caught up with the subject. Without all the facts, it is very unfair to pass judgment either way. This is what the news papers do, Monday morning quarterbacking! This is for all the cop haters that have posted on this. And someone said "I'll never call the cops"! I'm calling a big BS on that one. There will come a day when you will need one. I only hope they haven't read this thread.

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Originally Posted by Bill Hollinger

There will come a day when you will need one. I only hope they haven't read this thread.

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Thank you for all your service Bill, as well as that of Art and the many other retired (and active) LEO's who are members of this community. It is certainly appreciated by most of us ..... :thup:

I served 17 years in the military and I'm not sure I would be able to do that job with all of the political correct nonsense and constant scrutiny that goes on from reporters and politicians. all of whom sit comfortably behind their desks, or lock their doors at night to let the potential anarchy become your problem.

Anyway, enough said .... :cheers:

Bill....we are ALL prisoners of our own experience. Google: "Melissa Anne Herstrum" to understand mine...fair enough?

Just an observation: Police forces are a necessary evil, unfortunately one that is at times more evil than necessary. Too many LEO's act like they are part of an occupying army rather than members of a community, and that is when the system begins to break-down. Treat me like a hump...I react to you like you're Jeffrey Hodge coming after my daughter...and the beat goes on!

"Trust but verify!" R.W. Reagan

"Treat me like a hump...I react to you like you're Jeffrey Hodge coming after my daughter...and the beat goes on!"

You know that works both ways. Peoples actions and attitudes affect how they are treated by the police also. It's not a one way street? Ray

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Originally Posted by rayg

You know that works both ways. Peoples actions and attitudes affect how they are treated by the police also. It's not a one way street? Ray

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Thanks Ray .. :beerchug:

A man of few words ... :lol:

Well said and very apropos .... :clap:

John, that murder was terrible. There is not getting around that. There is bad in every corner of the world. The problem is that if an agency of 1000 officers has one like Jeffrey Hodge, the bad guy is Jeffrey Hodge, not the other 999 officers.

Who is Melissa Anne Herstrum to you? If she is related somehow, then for that I am very sorry this happened to your family. I didn't do it nor did the other 999 officers.

to "Gain compliance with a lawful order."

You see Bill that is a big part of the problem. What constitutes a lawful order? In reality it is whenever a cop opens his mouth, a "lawful order" ensues. Any and all of your constitutional rights (including life and liberty) are lost right then and there.

I won't bore you with anecdotal incidents that have occurred to me and thousands of others. These incidents happen every hour of every day. Cops and politicians are of a common ilk. They usually start out with good intentions. Then the system grabs them and those good intentions pave the highway to Hell.

When you pin on that badge it automatically exempts you from the law. Cops routinely lie, cheat, and disobey both the laws of man and of God. They can do so, usually without consequences. I fear the police far more than the "bad guys." Bad guys have never harmed me or my family. Cops have... When you talk about 999 good cops and 1 bad one, in my opinion/experience, your numbers are reversed.
:banghead:

WOW! Sorry you feel that way.

Seeing how I am hated just for my profession, I think I'll just go back to being an occasional post reader. I have really enjoyed the CSP boards since I first started posting in 1999. Particularly the M1 / M14 board and the M1903 Board. But this cop bashing here is alot of unfounded nonsense. And I am just not comfortable exchanging historical firearms info with folks who will hate me only because I have a job that keeps the public safe.

I live and work in a very rural county and everyone pretty much knows everyone else. Problem Deputies are weeded out quickly. Use of force is usually only needed when dealing with the heavily drunk or high individuals who haven't any brain cells functioning at the time. 9 times out of 10 they are very sorry for their actions when they sober up. I have not had no where near the type of anti cop hate talk that I see here from sober people. The drunks are altogether diffrent, and you need thick skin or you have no business being a cop.

However, I do not need to come here and see this type of cop bashing from other (sober?) individuals. Sorry guys, I'll drop by from time to time but my posting will become even more limited then it has been.

Sincerely, Sgt. Rob P. (over the years due to CSP glitches I have been known as Rob in Idaho and USMC Rob)

Bill, you, Art, and others have stated the case as well as it can be stated. I too am sorry to see so many otherwise good people express such outright hostility towards a whole segment of society (the police) the great majority of whom have done nothing to deserve it. I can only hope that the people in this thread who have expressed such negative opinions of the police are in a distinct minority. Otherwise there isnt much hope for society. If all the "good" people feel that way, who could blame the scum for being the way they are? As for me, I wont lose any sleep over being exposed to such animosity, nor should you. Some of the negative opinions I saw expressed here I dismiss as so much hot air. I am proud of what you, Art, and all the others in uniform have done for John Q. Public, and if he doesnt realize why we feel the way we do, then he can go scratch his A--. I am retired and no longer have to worry what they think, one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by rayg

You know that works both ways. Peoples actions and attitudes affect how they are treated by the police also. It's not a one way street? Ray

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Yep it do...and frankly, there's nothing wrong with that. I don't trust a cop, he doesn't trust me...we both then play by the letter of the law, and everything works out fine. No trust is required....mores' the pity!

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Originally Posted by Bill Hollinger

John, that murder was terrible. There is not getting around that. There is bad in every corner of the world. The problem is that if an agency of 1000 officers has one like Jeffrey Hodge, the bad guy is Jeffrey Hodge, not the other 999 officers.

Who is Melissa Anne Herstrum to you? If she is related somehow, then for that I am very sorry this happened to your family. I didn't do it nor did the other 999 officers.

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Not family....just a fellow student of my wife's traveling the same routes in the same buildings at the same times as my wife did! As for the rest....Jeffery Hodge didn't just mug a co-ed on his "day-off"....he used his uniform, his patrol car, his badge, and his department-issued handcuffs and firearm to "force compliance with a 'lawful order'" from his intended victim as he handcuffed her, stripped her naked, forced her to lie face-down on the ground and then pumped 14 shots from his Service Pistol into her back and head. Nothing personal....but in that instance, all the other 999 were right there with Hodge whether they wanted to be or not (and certainly you/they didn't as every LEO I've talked to about it were certainly just as sickened by his actions as the entire Toledo area was...but there's a "downside" to the monolithic "Blue Wall"!).

All I can see is the same thing Melissa did when Jeffery Hodge approached her....a uniform telling me I have to "comply with his lawful order"...look where her "trust" got her. No Bill...trust is like virginity; you only lose it once!

But, the good news is that professionally...we don't have to trust each other. I know the cop approaching my car sure as hell doesn't trust me (that hand on the gun is kind-of a clue!)...and based on my experience I'd be an idiot to trust him! As long as we BOTH play EXACTLY by the rules...no trust is required.

I've never heard so much Police Bashing on any forum. Some of you "Basher's" remind me of the little 16 year old punk that took off running.
And i'll bet most of you "Basher's" did" something stupid in your life time that got the Police involved and it diden't come the way you thought it would.
If i had a 16 year old son that jumped out and ran from the Police, When i caught up with him, He'd be the one calling 911 to get help, and be glad to see Police show up.
Any way, It's been a great day:beerchug:.

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Originally Posted by lboos

I've never heard so much Police Bashing on any forum. Some of you "Basher's" remind me of the little 16 year old punk that took off running.
And i'll bet most of you "Basher's" did" something stupid in your life time that got the Police involved and it diden't come the way you thought it would.
If i had a 16 year old son that jumped out and ran from the Police, When i caught up with him, He'd be the one calling 911 to get help, and be glad to see Police show up.
Any way, It's been a great day:beerchug:.

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And not only that, but now we have an inkling where the expression "Gun Nut" comes from. I guess our love of firearms makes for some pretty strange bedfellows.:dunno:

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Originally Posted by Ken C.

And not only that, but now we have an inkling where the expression "Gun Nut" comes from. I guess our love of firearms makes for some pretty strange bedfellows.:dunno:

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Too bad, because it's gun folks that might have such hate/anti police/authority attitudes that could scare the average citizen/general puplic into giving more support to gun control. Anyway, my opinion, Ray

Locked thread ... :surrender:

This isn't a very healthy thread and quite frankly, in our opinion there's some pretty disturbing attitudes amongst a few folks. :ugh:

It's incredible that some people would label and measure an entire group by the actions of a minority. Apparently bigotry isn't necessarily just about race, color, religion or creed.

In any event, we wonder what Dick would say if this thread were about Marines and not police officers .. :(

Maybe it's time for this board to move on ... :bitch: