there is some speculation as to 03a3 drill receivers are unsafe to build with, why?
i just bought a ton of surplus new parts and a SOG a3 drill receiver but now i'm being told they are not safe?
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there is some speculation as to 03a3 drill receivers are unsafe to build with, why?
i just bought a ton of surplus new parts and a SOG a3 drill receiver but now i'm being told they are not safe?
Many, many rifles of all calibers have been built from drill rifle receivers without a single problem. I know of only one reported problem with same. I myself have converted several with zero problems. Many think that welding on a receiver automatically makes it weaker, but I have cut them in half and welded them back together with no problems, nor would I expect any. It all depends on how it is done. Shortening receivers was once a fairly common practice.
I suspect you will have no problems. Check headspace often if you are concerned. It is the weld on the front receiver ring that gives one pause for concern. A small tack weld on the bottom of the ring should have no detrimental effects.
Others may give you contrary advice. The choice is one you must make.
Jim
You might want an experienced smith to look at the receiver just in case. Since I haven't seen your receiver, it is difficult to judge accurately.
I agree with Jim about checking headspace every few hundred rounds.The rifle may be fine,but the check lets you know nothing is changing.There have been so many drill rifles put back in service that I wont buy an 03a3 from anyone who wont allow a take down before purchase.If Im paying real money im going to get a real rifle.
i will take some photos of the receiver in question, check back in an hour if you guys can
ok, here is where they welded the bbl to the receiver, notice the bare metal that is the weld, no to bad looking after i cleaned it up
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
interal
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
cut off cleaned up and blued, yeah its ugly
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
the raceway
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
all that i can really see being a problem it the structure of the steel is weak from high heat
shouldnt be a safety issue.
however, the steel on the receiver ring will be raised from the heat, it should be faced.
personally id send that one pack and ask for one with a cleaner cutoff area.
or better one thats not been hacked on.
that looks like hell.
A3,s are 2.5% nickle steel, and surface hardened, are DP rifles unsafe??well, i no longer work on them for customers, not from the safety factor, mostly from the scamming factor.
i had a man bring me a 1903A3 to my table at a show to ask what i thought of it.
told him it was a recevered drill rifle, and he asked how i knew?
im the one that recovered it, for a man that was said to be making himself cheap shooters.
it was being advertised as a standard A3 at 650.00..that was the last DP rifle i did for a customer..
i personally own a few recovered DP rifles, they shoot well, and look great, i dont plan on selling them, and just shoot them.
and some have some great history.
yet to have a DP A3 with headspace issues.
i've heard about quite a few guys restoring drill rifles. mine is basically surplus new, as every part other than the receiver i bought only because they were new. my barrel .005 short and needs to be reamed and once i have this done by a proffesional (lacking funds to do so) i won't worry about headspace as it will be corrected when the barrel is installed i just cant get the heat treatment problem out of my mindQuote:
Originally Posted by chuckindenver
Get it out of your head. That weld looks fairly typical. If it worries you, buy a non-drill rifle receiver.
The picture is fuzzy, but it looks like someone butchered the cutoff area anyway.
Jim
yeah, the cut off area was a freaking cluster **** took 3 hours with a dremmel just to find it, not to mention 7 grinding wheels:thdown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Tarleton
i think i'll roll with it, if it blows up well.... nice knowing you guys lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Jim Tarleton
just did the research on these, the action is from old drill rifles that old western scounger bought and revived them and claim they are safe to use and sog claims them to be safe to use also:dancingbanana:
A recovered DR receiver likely will not blow up - it will stretch. I converted two Remington A3 DRs at the same time. Both had minimal welds - about .125" wide by .6" long & no discoloration to the metal. Both old barrels came off easily & the reciver faces dressed up fine. Both got new barrels, bolts, cut offs & other parts. Both barrels screwed on & tightened up just fine, like on a ordinary (non DR) receiver. During assembly, everything was completely normal. Both headspaced perfectly. After 200 rounds, I checked headspace again. One was fine but the bolt on the second closed on a No Go gauge. Thinking I'd made a mistake, I swapped bolts & found one that would headspace OK. 20 Rounds later, that bolt also closed on a No Go gauge. Off came the barrel & the receiver now makes a nice paper weight! I'd say don't chance it. Who knows where it will be in 50 years & whose grandson may fire it.
Kirk,
"Who knows where it will be in 50 years & whose grandson may fire it."
Your final sentence are words of wisdom. I thought about building one of these, but it might be my son or his children that end up with it. Not worth it in my book.
TKacook
I know you're a shooter as I have always been.
Why not save just a little while and buy a complete 1903. They don't cost much.
I saw the photos of what happened to your face and you were very lucky.
Wish someone made an affordable .22 conversion kit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cafdfw
I agree.:cool:
Jim
though i agree, a unDP 03 or A3 is what a guy wants.
and some DP rifles should not be restored.
however, id doubt that a A3 stretched, more likely its a bolt issue, and or barrel issue.
the locking ways on the receiver may have been worn, long before the rifle was made into a DP rifle, setback is a common issue with 1903,s that saw a lot of use{firing} and manual of arms.
the fact they havnt been shot in some 45 years, only played with, should say something.
but, most of the DP A3,s iv delt with were as new if not new, when converted to DP.
i purchsed some 75 A3 DP rifles the first go around, and all but 5 were ok, the 5 that wernt restorable, were welded heavy, or damaged, from rough use.
most were as new, no rebuild marks, nice FJA marked stocks ect, early barrels, and blue parts, a couple just had epoxy in the bore, and cuttoff, and no welds, they came back easy.
i have 3 family members that have A3,s that i built and gave them as gifts,
my dad shoots the one i did for him monthly, and loves it, just came over last week and showed me a target that he killed with it, and the nice 1/2 group i shot.
as hard as the A3 is and being nickle steel, id say to stretch one would be tough. but not out of the question.
just closing on a gauge, isnt death of a receiver, whats the fired case look like?
found many 03,s A3,s and mosly 17,s that closed on a NG gauge, and the brass looked great,
without getting off into headspace land, and the long drawn out discussion that usually goes with it.
a fired case will tell more then any gauge.
but, in any case, a rifle you dont trust, should never be used, and cut up as scrap.
try 3 brands of no go and or field gauges, they all measure differently.
i use a GI issue gauge..and dont carry a gauge in your pocket at the gunshows,
imagine the wear it gets with your jackknife, change and car keys.
they should be stored in a case, seperate from any othet tools, or so they dont rub or wear against other objects.
ever see the guy selling a basket of gauges at the show? how many years have those been in that basket? think those are accurate???
but like any salvaged rifle, caution should be used, as well as safety glasses, and gloves, when firing.
tire testfire should also be done, from a safe distance..
hey chuck, you have any good un-violated a3 receivers i can buy from you? i got $500 worth of new gi parts that i really don't want just laying aroundQuote:
Originally Posted by chuckindenver
Are both a potential for scam, and a safety hazard, no matter what else is said. The rifles were rendered inoperable by means of welding without any thought that they might ever be restored - and they were sold on that same understanding, with caveat that they were NOT to be restored. I think we've all seen these offered for sale as original items without any indication of what they really are - Caveat Emptor, indeed!
Welding does affect the temper. of course, but the worst thing is the location of the weld at the front of the receiver ring - it not only impacts the heattreatment, but damages the metallurgical integrity of the receiver. I've seen cracked receivers in 1917s, 1903s of all types and vintages and 1903A3s - and the most commom location for the beginning of the crack is the draw mark on the front of the receiver, which forms a stress riser and is therefore the most likely place for failure to begin. How much more likely that a receiver which has been welded at the front end will crack is anybody's guess - and no one can say that it won't.
And, even those who restore such rifles 'strictly for personal use' are fooling only themselves - none of us lasts forever, and we have no control at all over what happens after we are gone. Subsequent owners are unlikely to know or care what our original intent was, so the risk we might be willing to take knowingly becomes one the new owner won't likely know anything about.
Does this seem ethical to you?
mhb - Mike
Being I Mechanical Enginneer, but not a metalurgist, I have had enough education on metalurgy to never trust a drill rifle. The heating during welding and cutting was uncontrolled and the cooling was uncontrolled. There is no way to say with certainty that they are safe. If one started growing headspace as it was fired I would suspect the locking surfaces got soft not that the receiver is stretching. This is the same issue that the National Ordnance receivers seem to have. Such a receiver is dangerous as excess headspace will lead to head seperations. The O3 drill rifles were welded on a lot what with the cuttoff and the barrel being welded then the barrel had a plug stuck in it and was torch cut on the bottom. I just do not think it is worth it since unmessed with 03s are not really that expensive and are much more likely to be safe. Now as to shortening an action I would say any good gunsmith who does that takes lots of precations that the locking surfaces do not get hot. On a drill rifle I bet a lot of nice red hot or hotter receivers rings did occur. Numrich used to make a .22 conversion kit for the 03. If you could find one of those I think you woudl be just fine shooting as many .22s as you wanted in a reactivaed drill rifle. Also let me say that if I were a gunsmith which I am not, I would not restore a rifle for a customer knowing that it was sold as unsafe. Only takes one blow up to put you out of buisness. I have some of the CMP MA unplugged drill rifles as well and would not consider firing them either though they have had a lot less welding done on them. My expectation on them is that with repeated use the receiver ring will crack at the weld. I do not think they got hot enough to ruin the heat treat on the lug seats but I am not sure some may have. The 03 and 03A3 receivers will probably eventually crack at the weld point on the receiver as well. So use at your own risk. FWIW I have sold nice unmessed with 03A3 receivers as recently as this year for $110. I have gotten more for them as well but they are around if you look.
i have no problem with the ethics, as they cant be hidden from ever being a drill rifle.
more work then its worth do remove the stainless weld, i can spot even the best redo.
personally i have had hundreds of A3,s in my hands, and have yet to see a cracked receiver edge, same for a 1917, not saying that they didnt happen, i have yet to see one.
and have yet to see a recovered A3, even one done poorly fail, not that they wont, just havnt seen one, not even pictures.
would like to see one if somo one has pics.
i personally own and shoot recovered drill rifles, and one in 338-06 imp. and another in .35Wh, imp.
not one issue as of yet.
and iv sold recovered drill rifles and advertised them as such, and went over what they were, and how i repaired them, and most buyers were ok with what they were, if not,i have nonDP rifles available for more money.
we cant control what anyone does with anything, as its buyer beware, just educate yourself, and know what to look for, and dont blame anyone but yourself when you buy something without doing the research.
on the old Jouster, i posted pictures on how to spot a receovered DP reciever.
if i have time. ill post them a again.
sorry, any A3 receivers i have are built into rifles.
i may have one thats been drilled and tapped, but even those are getting tough anymore.
why not just finish what you have, and be happy...?
yeah, i sent the action back and got store credit, i'll probably pick up a few mosins. please let me know if you got an extra receiver for saleQuote:
Originally Posted by DRB
one last thing to ponder.
drilling 2 holes, does more to the strength the welding the edge of the receiver face.
as they need to be annealed before drilling, both SHT, DHT, and nickel steel receivers have been Drilled and tapped over the last 100 years.
and some done by the factory, and the military..
the cuttoff only has to do with the function of the bolt, and not the safety of the receiver.
as for welding, i personally have seen and held a 1903 that was cut in 2, shortened and welded back together and chambered in .45 ACP. said rifle is still around, and shot all the time by the gunsmith that built it.
for the record.
i am by no means telling anyone to restore or recover a Drill rifle, only that, as usual, we are over thinking this, and jumping to conclusions..
not enough {facts} are in on the safety of a recovered A3 drill rifle.
but that i have done so, without an issue. other then the moral issue of being BS,s by a customer, and that and only that is the reason i wont work on Drill rifles.
i dont want to push my luck:surrender:Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckindenver
I guess I would disagree on the "drilling 2 holes, does more to the strength the welding the edge of the receiver face.
as they need to be annealed before drilling, both SHT, DHT, and nickel steel receivers have been Drilled and tapped over the last 100 years". If they are done correctly a spot anneal is confined to a very small spot and the metal never melts. If done correctly the only spot affected will be right at the contact of the flame. Now if the guy does not know what he is doing he could easily ruin the gun. BTW you can grind a small spot before drilling to get through the hard surface on the SHT and it helps on the others as well instead of spot annealing. I have seen many drilled and tapped without annealing. Welding melts the metal that is a lot hotter then a spot anneal which should just get a small read spot. Cutting a receiver in two and welding it back is okay as long as the receiver ring is kept cool. The lug ways carry no load unless the safety lug is contacting the receiver.
i guess, id say, go and drill a A3 receiver,and see how far the heat treat goes through.
youll be suprised.
see, i do this all the time, i also repair holes drilled in them as well.
have yet to see one fail do to holes, welds, ect...
kinda like the sky is falling the sky is falling..
drill a hole, in a 1 inch, by 6 inch by 7/8 thick length of steel, heat treated or not,
place it in a vise with the hole above the jaws,
bend it with a pair of pliers, were does the steel bend, and likely crack and split....the hole...
take another length of steel, same dems, weld on the outer edge of the steel,
place it in the vise with the weld above the jaws, bend it as well, what happens???
it just bends, doesnt crack at the weld, likely it will bend above or below the weld.
for the receord, iv yet to {grind} any rifle before its drilled and tapped, i have spot annealed, and all it does it help the drill start.
likely A4,s like the early Garand C,s were drilled before the heat treat procceess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk
It is highly likely that the welder used an acetylene torch in one hand and and held the weld material in the other . This is a very old way to weld. Without a doubt the front end of your receiver was heated hot enough to remove the heat treatment.
You did the correct thing though, in monitoring the headspace on your rifle as you shot it. This is what I did with one DP A3 receiver. I screwed on a so-so barrel, have shot the rifle at least 100 times, maybe more, and the headspace has not changed. So I think my receiver is safe.
Short of having it Rockwell tested, this is good enough for me.
they used a {stick} welder, with stainless steel rod, cheap, easy and fast.
and A3,s are hardened through and through, not just on the surface.
drill a hole through one once and you will see, that bit will cry all the way through, and you may even see sparks.
so spot annealing wont help, it might make it worse.
seems SC receivers are a bit harder then Remingtons..why? have no idea.
i just d&T a SC, took me 4 carbide drills, and had to use a mill, as my Drill press wouldnt do the job.
Which is exactly what you want. Unlike the shallow and erratic hardening depths of the low carbon steels used in the single heat treat and double heat treat receivers, alloy steels will consistantly harden all the way through the metal. :beerchug:Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckindenver
8600 steels were called "National Emergency" (NE) steels at the time. Using a tiny amount of expensive and strategic Nickel, Chromium, and Manganese, they were able to raise the tensile strength by 20% compared to carbon steels. Plus these alloys heat treated evenly and through the material.
Probably in the heat treat, or the carburization. I know the case depth on Garand receivers is real deep. They must have left those things in the gas furnances for a long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckindenver
iv drilled a few Remingtons...and this was the first SC iv done.
heck, i try and save em, not drill em.
anyhoo.
maybe it was just me being wimpy, but i broke 4 new carbide drills and used my buddys mill to do the job..my high dollar drill press wouldnt do the job:{
yes.i use a Forester D&T fixture..duuuh.
they usually cry, for a better lack of terms, at the surface, then go right through,
these cried all the way through, and even with oil drip, it still sparked.
i used a size bigger tap drill, to prevent the broken tap saga.
ahhh, the hard lessons we learn.
when D&T Hardened steel, always use the next size larger then listed for a tap drill, on smaller fine thread holes...if you dont you will snap a tap..try digging that out of a 6-48 hole...
iv drilled through alot of hard metal , but so far the Smith Carona A3, is top dog for being the hardest to drill..at least in my world.
Did anyone else see the article by Reid Coffield in the April 27 issue of Shotgun News? He started a new series on using a drill rifle to build a pseudo 1922.
Stryker60