7.62x54R in a P14?

[ArtPahl]

I recently ran across a Winchester model 95 musket and it got me wondering. When the Russians contracted with Winchester to make rifles, why wasn't the P14 chosen? Wasn't Winchester already making P14's in that era? It seems to me that the P14 would have been a better/easier fit than the 95.

I got out a P14 and a Mosin-Nagant along with some 7.62x54R cartridges to see what looked like changes would need to be made. The fifth cartridge would almost fit in the P14, so some magazine box alterations needed. Feed rails, bolt face & extractor, chamber (bore is OK), clip slots, sight graduations changed to arshins (sp) or meters, etc. Certainly changes no more drastic than needed to change to the model 1917. I would not think that the Brits would object any more strongly to the Russians using their design than the Americans appropiating it.

I have never heard of anyone modifying a P14 to take the Russian cartridge. It wouldn't be a useful enterprise since the cartridges are so similar in performance.

Thoughts, anyone?

[fjruple]

I believe the Pattern 1914 design was proprietary to the British Government unlike the design of the Winchester 1895 which Winchester owned. Winchester had their problems just filling the British Pattern 1914 contract. But it is an interesting thought a 7.62x54R Pattern 1914.

[Promo]

Putting the two side to side the Winchester 1895 has huge benefits with weight and overall outer dimensions (much handier and almost feels half the weight of the P.14). But I don't think the British would had wanted their rifle design in Russian hands either. The fact that the Mosin Nagant rifle design was manufactured by NEW and Remington at the same time (where it could had been Winchester to manufacture those as well) might also be a clue as to why WRA was only to deliver what they already produced and were good at.

[Salt Flat]

Coincidentally I came across an article on Forgotten weapons. Winchester actually made a run of 500 P14 based variants in 7.62 Russian. It was a simplified version of the P14 called the Winchester Model D.

From Forgotten Weapons;
"Once the Model 1914 production was smoothly underway, Johnson returned to his new rifle. The rear sight was now moved back to the receiver bridge like the P14 to become the Model C, and an economy model of the same was named the Model D. By this time the date is 1916, and Winchester was trying to market the Model D as a military rifle to a variety of nations. This particular example is chambered in 6.5 Portuguese (6.5×58mm Vergueiro), because of interest from that country. The most potential, however, came from Russia, and in late 1917 Winchester made a sample batch of 500 Model D rifles chambered for the Russian 7.62x54R cartridge. These rifles were ready in October 1917, which was not exactly an ideal time to be making business deals with the Czar – and the whole effort fell apart."

Here's a link to the excellent video and article:
Winchester Model D: The WW1 Origin of the Famous Model 70

Salt Flat

[Melanie_Daniels]

Here some more of the Winchester test rifles - Winchester also planed them in .303 brit. and in 6,5x58 (the Verguerio-Rifle).

[Calif-Steve]

The time and money part were a problem. I think late in WW1 the Russian Czar was nearly bankrupt. If I remember it correctly, the Russians failed to pay for many of the 95 Winchesters and it was the same story on the M1891 MN rifles. You had a Czar, then a civilian and finally a Communist government. All of this in short order. Then a mean Civil War and a mean war with Poland. Would have been a good idea in 1914 but it didn't happen. By the way, the Czar really did not want to go to war but was forced by the French government.