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Given that there were about 350,000 1's and 1*'s converted to /2's and /3's,
can someone provide insight to the following question-Are the percentages of rifles converted similar to the percentages origionally made in the 40's, or was a preference given to British rifles to be converted? Are there any records which may indicate how many of what manufacturer were converted?
Thanks in advance-an interesting side trip on the Enfield road......
Good question Limpet and I know a bit about this. I'm going to write a lengthy article about the conversion process that I learned from an old Fazakerley factory manager, alas now dead. Hold on to your horses as it's quite interesting albeit a bit anorak-ish
Great, I look forward to reading your work. Some more observations and questions to ponder, then, too:
Latest /2 /3 conversion I've seen is a '56. Were any done in '57 and if so how many?
Earliest conversion? Did the program start in 50 or were any one-off's produced in '49?
I've noticed three main types of restriking:
The complete mill off, with pantograph etching;
The strike through and pantograph etching new info to one side(usually the right)
The "addition", where the /3 is added to the right of the existing, the * crossed thru.
Any clue as to why the three types of marks were used? I should sort my reciever pictures and see if there are any trends developing
Thanks again,
Learned a bit o' new slang/terminology here .... anorak
Well you guys beat me to it. I was compiling a collection of 1/2 and 1/3's and managed to get a "complete set" looking at different original makers of the rifle's. I was also close to having them all have different conversions years, but alas I have been unable to find a 1949, 50, or 57 converted BSA or Savage Mk 1/2.:mad:
From what you can observe Fazakerly started removing all receiver wall markings in 1954, previous to that they just canceled them with an electric pencil. Also of interest is the amount of "new" parts installed, none have their original barrel, and one rifle appears to be all 1954 made parts minus the receiver.
Attached are pic's of my 7 different girls with an extra LB 1/3 with both types of markings.
1951 conversion of a 1943 Fazakerly
1952 conversion of a 1944 Savage Mk I*
1953 conversion of a 1942 Savage Mk I
1953 conversion of a 1942 BSA (new s/n assigned)
1954 conversion of a 1941 LongBranch Mk I
1955 conversion of a 1944 Maltby
1956 conversion of a 1944 LongBranch Mk I*
1953 conversion of a 1944 LongBranch Mk I*
It's interesting that some of you think that the previous details have been linished out. This probably isn't the case as you'll see, the UK way of doing things is never to linish out but to bar through and over engrave. This is to ensure that the previous history is always available for Armourers to see. As an exampke, we can trace our No4's and Brens all the way from the 40's. Indeed, we can trace our Brens right through from Canadian Mk2's, made in 1943 all the way through conversion to Mk2/1, then to L4A3, then L4A5 right up to L4A8 in the late 70's. All because of bodyside markings.
I believe that if the previous marks were present and legible, they were simply barred out or added to. If they weren't visible, then they were re-engraved and/or a new number allocated. I COULD be wrong...............
What about the conversions done at BSA?
I have a 1954 Mk1/3 and a 1957 Mk 1/2 from BSA----both rifles absolutely "linished" out. Of course BSA did things their own way and it is assumed the rifles were done for foreign contracts, so not part of the system.
Lance, there are some '50 dated Fazakerley conversions out there...
-----krinko
Lance,
Sorry to have stole your thunder, it certainly wasn't my intent. You have a nice collection of conversions, to be envied. I'll try to post a few pictures of my meager collection soon. I have one that Mr. Laidler referenced, an FTR'd No. 4 Mk 1 later converted to Mk /2. I don't think there's any room left on the receiver wall! I've not seen a '57 conversion-do they they exist?
Lance, thanks again!
limpetmine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance
Here's one from the files----a Fazakerley 1958.
-----krinko
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance
Lance,
Nice collection!
On the photo of the /55 conversion, I see that the receiver wall has a sharp "stepped" edge at the front of the wider section at the bottom of the action -it is not a smooth curve back in towards the rear of the knox form area.
Do you know if this machining change was unique to late war Maltbys, or was done generally at all of the UK No4 plants at that time?
I have a BSA converted 1/2 with just such a "step", have been trying to establish where the original rifle may have been made.
Thanks
Tom
As for the BSA's, you're right. BSA was simply a private commercial factory and they didn't do any FTR's for the UK Military, only for foreign governments and as contractors. The governments concern was to keep the Fazakerley factory open and workforce busy. Westley Richards was also a private factory and they did the same with FTR'ing Bren Guns for foreign governments. Both BSA and W-R used to buy vast quantities to FTR and sell to the emerging , er...., African nations.... who used them against us later. As a bit of an aside for you Bren fans, they also had a patented and used an idea for Mk1 Brens where they'd machine off the drum sight dovetail and braze on the body a bracket arrangement that would take the Mk2 and 3 leaf sight. I have seen the drawings but not an actual gun. Does anyone have such a W-R 50's FTR Mk1/2 Bren as they used to call them
Although I am not a great 'spotter', If I hadn't SEEN a Fazakerley 1956 or later FTR (thanks Krinko etc) I would have disbelieved it due to the fact that by then the new build Mk2 for the RAF and other governments programme was in full swing.
The Krinko 1950 Mk1/2 picture shows just how bad the Faz markings could get and how difficult it was to read, especially after some use, a short bead blast and dip in the phosphate tank. Then paint it and the marks have disappeared. That's the earliest Mk1/2 I have seen.
As for Savage Mk1/2's, they do exist but I was always taught that these rifles (plus Diamond T transporters, in use up until the end of the 70's and Half Tracks, in use up until 1973 or so) NEVER belonged to the UK. They were only lent or leased to us and were subject to certain conditions and always liable to call back. Lend lease......, remind me to mention the Catalina flying boats one day..................
Thanks for the pic's Krinko! A '58 Mk 1/2....damn another one I have to find. And I thought a '57 was going to be tough! I have run across '57 FTR'd Mk 2's but have yet to see a '57 Mk 1/2! I almost picked up a '49 1/3 but the bore was bad, in reflection I should of grabbed it anyways. Ah, the joy of collecting.
Max, from my observations most of the makers of the No.4's have that step in the receiver side wall, except for LongBranch. On the earlier conversions in the previous pic's you can see them. Why they are there, I have no clue.
Only too happy to supply photos, gentlemen-----and very happy to see some serious attention being paid to the post-war No4.
Good luck in the hunt, Lance.
-----krinko
How about a No. 4 Mk. 1/3 Trials rifle? According to Skennerton, about 200 were made.https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...a05d-1.jpg?v=0https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...e48eba_b-1.jpg
How do you make a Mk1/3 trials rifle Jona? According to legend, trials rifles were all 1930's era Mk1's weren't they? Or am I missing something?
In any case, even from the small amount of detail shown in the picture from the official drawings that we have here, that the 84L-- rifle shown in the photo isn't a BSA or a Fazakerley conversion
It is a No.4 Mk 1* converted to Mk 1/3 configuration. It was a trials conversionN of a Mk 1* to see if such was practical. Apparently markings had not been decided on yet as the only indicator was the '48 FTR date.
That wasn't converted to Mk1/3 spec at Fazakerley Jona. It might have been FTR'd at Fazakerley in 1948 but the 1/3 modification defiately wasn't there
Reviving an old thread, because this kind of information NEVER gets old.... does anyone know the extent of the FTR program at BSA, such as when it started and finished, how many rifles were changed to Mk.1/2 and Mk.1/3 configuration, etc? I hadn't even heard of an FTR program at BSA until a few days ago, and I want to plug the huge gap in my knowledge base (ok, my knowledge base is like Swiss cheese anyway..)
I comes from the 'official' uniform of Train and Aircraft Spotters. Crimpline trousers at half-mast topped by an anorak and carrying a duffle bag with a Thermos Flask sticking out of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
Actually I work for a famous Air Tattoo every year and the term 'Spotter' is now considered pejorative and should be replaced by the term 'enthusiast' but they're still spotters. (In the same way that Falkland Islanders are know as 'stills'.)
KevG spotted such a beast at Beltring some years back and took some photos:Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Weapons OnLine - Indian MkI/3 or Mk3/I ??
Mark
I am not a photographer and have never played one on television but here is the markings on my '42 Savage. Why didn't Fazakerley put the month before the year?
Attachment 14708
Right, earliest date I have come across in my internet searches for BSA FTRed No.4 Mk1/2 or Mk1/3 is 1953. Anyone know if there are earlier examples floating around? Any idea when BSA stopped their FTR program?
The FTR process to Mk 1/2 and 1/3 started in 1949 with a majority of them, it appears from availability, in 1953. In 1954 they slightly changed the marking process to remove all the original receiver wall markings where they engrave the FTR information. Not a big deal for the Uk made rifles but for the North American made examples it was significant.
Also of interest my '57 has been given a new "A" serial number not the "YF" style used prior. The one '58 photo I saw though still used the original rifle's serial number so there appears some variation there.
I am still looking for a collector's quality '49 and '50 and '58 dated examples, I have found a dozen '49 and '50's but all were well abused or bubba'd.
For BSA FTR's Spinecracker, I agree with you I have only come across 1953 and 1954 dated examples
Here's a 1949 Mk.I/2.
Attachment 14748
In reference to BSA FTR's to 1/2 or 1/3, The dates I have noted are 54', 55', 56', and 57' for No.4's and FTR 53', 54' for No.1's. I have yet to find a BSA 1/2 or 1/3 FTR'd No.4 with a 53' date.
After re-reading some of the info above I thought maybe I should clarify a bit.
I'm not speaking about BSA rifles that had been FTR'd... I am speaking of rifles having been FTR'd AT, BSA.
sorry, I did not clarify things better. I was also only referring to No.4 Mk.1s FTRed at BSA.
As this thread seems to cover both BSA & Faz FTR'd rifles I thought this post by Peter Laidler on the old Jouster forum may be of interest :
THE FAZAKERLEY FTR PROGRAMME OF 1948 TO 1951
I spoke at length to one of the now passed on but then very old managers at Fazakerly. This FTR programme started after the last production of new (No5) rifles had ceased. The Cold War was uppermost in minds, Maltby had closed and it was important to keep the large Fazakerley plant on stream. It was also pointed out that it was Faxakerley and not Enfield that had the expertise when it came to No4 rifles. While some were upgraded and FTR’d at Enfield, it was very few and even then, this was only to ascertain engineering principles and viability. Remember of course, that while it was a separate Ministry of Supply ROFactory, Fazakerley was always under the technical direction and control of the RSAF at Enfield.
The ROF-6 Ministry of Supply factory Fazakerley FTR and their later conversion to 1/2 and 1/3 programme was identical. The principal exception being that there was an additional sliding gauge used during the 'in-inspection' phase for the Mk1* rifles. This gauge went into the bolt-way on the Mk1* rifles and identified two points.
The first point was, that the gauge identified Mk1* rifles with an internally protruding part of the bridge charger guide. This little internal rib, under the charger guide would and often did strike the rear of the extractor spring as you were withdrawing the bolt out under the charger bridge while removing the bolt. The rib would strike the spring slap bang between the little recess that protects it and shove it out leaving you with no extractor spring. These rifles were marked with a big dob of yellow marker on the butt socket and were diverted away to a secondary machine shop where the offending rib was machined away on a horizontal boring machine
The second job of the gauge was to identify Mk1* rifles with worn bolt head slots. These rifles were marked with another unknown/don’t remember colour on the butt socket. These rifles were diverted to the welding bay where the slot was made good and then refinished in the machine shop. You can identify these rifles with re-made bolt head slots due to the fact that they are of a harder material and the material change shows up after phosphating. We saw hundreds of these during our Base Workshop FTR’s too.
The rifles came in from the main Ordnance Depot at Weedon but came from across the world. They came in wooden crates where they were just packed in, any amount to a crate. They were filthy, covered in mud and blood, bent, battered, smashed up, rusty, burned out………… in fact any condition.
First they were all put through a sort of industrial power wash process where the immediate no-hopers – about 15 percent or so - were sifted and sent for scrap. The remainder were totally stripped by unskilled female workers. Every part was inspected and sent through vast linishing drums where they were cleaned and phosphate then painted. There was little inspection, beyond the obvious of these small component parts because any defective parts would be immediately identified on the assembly lines. The main body and barrels were sent to the skilled ‘viewers’ who would gauge and view the barrels and examine the bodies with factory gauges. There was a set criteria for the body and barrels. The viewer had to confirm, by experience, ‘…that the body and barrel, after the FTR, conformed to and was capable of providing a further 80 percent life’. That is a bit of an ambiguous statement to me but I read it as stating that the gauging limits ALL had to be within 80 percent of NEW.
Woodwork that was went to a specialized woodwork shop where the expensive butts were patched as necessary. You’ll identify these perfect toe and heel patches with their perfect oak pegs. Strangely, the butt was more expensive to produce than the fore-end. As for the fore-ends, you will identify some of these by the internally patched reinforces and occasionally, when the need arose, small dovetail patches at the rear right hand side of Mk1 fore-ends to close off the bolt head catch opening to suit needy Mk1* ‘no bolt head catch’ rifles. Mk1* rifle type fore-ends were not produced in the UK. Converted yes, produced, no!
Apart from the initial gauging to ascertain faulty Mk1* rifles and the conversion of Mk1 fore-ends to Mk1* spec, there was no difference between the two types of rifle.
The Mk1 to 1/2 and 1* to 1/3 UPGRADING - 1950-54
These were completely different repair/rebuild programmes and while the processes were pretty well identical, EVERY rifle that went in was upgraded. So it could be that a damaged war-weary Savage Mk1* went in for FTR in 1949 was re-issued in Germany in 1950, then came back in 1953 for a further FTR. This time it emerged as a Mk1/3. However, I have been reliably informed that this scenario is the exception and not the rule
The same was true of the condition that some of these rifles went IN for the FTR Upgrading process. They too were extensively war damaged, this time from Korea and it is of this era that you will occasionally but rarely see a Mk1/2 No4T.
Once again for the upgrade programme, the fore-ends were extensively modified at the rear by cutting, patching and pegging to clear the new ‘BLOCK, trigger’
This time, in addition to all of the previous FTR processes, a quantity of rifles deemed beyond repair but aesthetically suitable were side tracked and sent to Enfield to be converted to Skeletonised training rifles. But even these were not converted at Enfield because they had their hands full with the FTR programme for Bren Guns. Mk1 guns for scrap or skeletonisation or DP, Mk2 guns to Mk2/1 and Mk3 for a full FTR. The Skeletonisation programme for the No4 rifles (and Brens incidentally) went to LIST at Dagenham.
The conversion programme to /2 and /3 (It’s not ‘slash 2 or 3’ in UK military parlance, but said as ‘number 4 mark 1 oblique 2’) was done not by brazing on a pre-machined block at the butt socket but by brazing on a SOLID partially machined block. The block was then finished when it was attached to the rifle. This ensured that the half circle recess to clear the new SCREW, tie, fore-end, the radial trigger slot and most importantly, the trigger axis pin hole was in the EXACT position. After the end of the upgrading programme, the ‘new-build’ PF- and UF55A- No4 Mk2 rifles were produced. But by this time, industrial relations at Fazakerley were best described as ‘tense’ and the factory began its slow inevitable decline. Even the offer of the secretive L2A3 Sterling and L1A1 rifle contract couldn’t sweeten or un-blinker the suicidal workforce. So while Sterling got on with making and selling its guns to the rest of the world and BSA stepped in at the last moment to rescue the L1A1 SLR, the remaining SLR machinery went from Fazakerley to Lithgow …………….. but that’s another story. I hope that’s answered a few questions. Oh yes, I forgot to mention it, but no, there was no differentiation between the marks as they went through the FTR and upgrading process.
As for the markings, well, as I have said before, the shallow, almost invisible pantograph scratch markings caused all sorts of headaches for Armourers and thousands of these almost invisible Fazakerley re-numbered rifles were later re-numbered with the 'lost' number format of SA60 A1234 and so on. One seen only last week reads SA63-A2253 indicating Small Arms, 1963 with the sequential number A-2253 while underneath a number that reads something like 53P xxxxx follows!
I didn't mention it in the above article but the Mk1/2 and 1/3 mid 50's conversions completed at the BSA factory (NOT BSA rifles converted to 1/2 or 1/3 but any rifle converted to 1/2 and 1/3 in the mid 50's onwards by BSA) were not done to a UK Military contract. All UK Military - Ministry of Supply conversions were done at Fazakerley as this was the only remaining Government rifle factory and they wanted to keep it open. The BSA FTR's to Mk1/2 and 1/3 were done on contract, for other Governments or under the 'Crown Agents' scheme.
Very occasionally you could/would see a BSA - FTR X/XX when Ordnance stockpiles were mixed or pooled
Whilst we can all imagine the logical FTR/upgrade process of stripping rifles to a barrelled action followed by a rebuild on an assembly line, the category that intrigues me are those rifles that appear to have retained their original wood and/or bolts and/or small parts.
The only way that this could happen is if the rifle was dissembled and all of the parts kept together in a unique bin or tray, and then reassembled together after being individually repaired/painted, etc. Clearly that would be quite an inefficient process for the refinishing aspect, although it would save time on restocking and adjusting part fit.
I wonder if - perhaps - relatively clean and undamaged rifles were filtered out during initial inspection, and then sent through an individual repair method, rather than a batch system?
Bolts were wired to the rifle body and remained as a matched pair but while I am not certain about the woodwork, I don't think it would be logical to match up woodwork on assembly. It was a VAST undertaking and during the Korean war era, was a 20 hour a day operation with 4 hours for care and maintenance.
Don't forget that for the upgraded Mk1/2 and 1/3, the tedious and time consuming process of setting trigger pressures was halved because it could be carried out regardless of the fore-end.
I think I've mentioned this before but while the Mk1/2, 1/3 and 2 were said to allow the use of relatively unseasoned wood, where any warpage would upset the trigger pull, that was only a very small part of it. The principal reason was to speed up rifle production. And the sheer volume of scale tipped the financial balance
I found a mention on Mr. Skennerton's website bulletboard (http://www.skennerton.com/bb.html) that the FTR program at BSA for No.4 Mk.1/2s and Mk1/3s was from 1954 to 1958. Besides that, I have nothing except for what you kind people have been able to dig up. I will go down and look the rifle over again tomorrow and see if it is a 1953 BSA FTR. If so, I can add something new to the rich and varied history of the Lee Enfield rifle. If not, then I can still drool over the rifle until someone throws me out of the store...
To add to the knowledge base on this little known topic, I checked the rifle again today, and it is a 1954 BSA FTRed No.4 Mk1/3, originally a Long Branch, with the original marking on the buttsocket and receiver removed, and new serial number (A85##) matching on the receiver, bolt, magazine and forend. I did not see any markings that would indicate service in any particular country post FTR. With Brady check and tax, it would come to about $330 US. I am quite tempted to buy it, even though things are very tight. I have been asking around at other forums, but there is hardly any information out there. I don't think anyone even has a ballpark idea of how many No.4s went through the BSA FTR program from 1954 to 1958, and I am not sure if the serial numbers would be of much help, although I am trying to find out serial numbers from 1954 to 1958 to see if there is a pattern. Why do I bump into uncommon Enfields when I do not have the cash?? lol
Spinecracker,
I have about 15 of these BSA FTR's and working on at least two more. All the 54's seem to be done in exactly the same fashion. All markings removed and a new "A" prefix serial number allotted. The wood ranges from converted Mk.I forestocks to brand new 50's dated ones. New BSA barrels and in most cases, new BSA bolts and bolt heads. They are also all fitted with milled Mk.1 rear sights marked, "B". I find that interesting as BSA didn't manufacture a milled Mk.I rear sight during WWII production. There may be, at least for the 54' dated ones, a series of serial numbers that may yield a range for production numbers but from what I can tell, the fun starts in 55. For some reason in 55' BSA seemed to change the nomenclature, that is, instead of reading FTR 1955 it just reads B 55. I have two of these and one has serial number A 79. Apparently the same continued for 56' and one of the rifles I am working on actually retained the rifles original serial number and instead of everything being scrubbed, all the previous markings were merely lined through. It was a Maltby rifle, originally. It seems for some reason in 55', the serial number sequence started over again and hung in there for what seems like 55' and 56'. Krinko's example, a FTR 1957, seems to suggest the nomenclature reverted back to the original in 57' ?
Who actually knows? I sure don't and the above is plainly speculation given the limited resources.
Spike,
Hmmm...I had guessed that BSA did something funky with the serial numbers, based on an earlier post of yours on another forum. I wonder what the 1954 serial numbers began at, and ended at. The rifle I looked at today had the replacement BSA bolt and bolt head, and the forend was a modified No.4 Mk.1 type. The milled rear sight has the "B" stamp. How many 1954 BSA FTRs do you have, if you do not mind me asking? How would a serial number of A85## fit in with yours? With your obvious knowledge regarding these rifles, would you think that $330 all in for a 1954 BSA FTRed No.4 Mk.1/3 would be a reasonable amount to pay? If I did buy this rifle, I would have to square it with my wife first, so any helpful pointers would be greatly appreciated lol.
I feel a serial number survey coming on...
Spinecracker,
A quick dig and I managed to find 8 FTR 1954 rifles. There are 3 more floating around someplace, according to my files. The serial numbers are as follows:
1. A 9339
2. A 10487
3. A 16312
4. A 16815
5. A 30557
6. A 32743
7. A 33578
8. A 43344
Your serial number, if only 4 digits, falls earlier than my earliest number. As for the price, well, given these rifles are of particular interest to me and if it was in very good shape, I would pay that price. I would certainly try to get it down a bit but it's not to crazy a price in my opinion. If you are a shooter and this rifle has a very good bore, being a FTR, it's as new as they come.
43,344? I didn't think that BSA would have been able to FTR so many rifles in 1 year. I did find a reference that stated "(p)roduction ceased at BSA-Shirley in the late 1940s, and in the mid-1950s the rifle fabrication machinery was sold to the Pakistan Ordnance Factory in Wah", so what kind of dent would this have put in BSA's ability to FTR No.4 Mk.1s to Mk.1/2 and Mk.1/3 configuration, especially as they were apparently replacing multiple parts, including the barrels? My mind is boggled.
They probably weren't manufacturing new receivers, barrels or other parts, so didn't need the full production machinery. At that time there must have been millions of existing spares available from MoD stores or from the trade, plus BSAs own stocks, plus access to the dozens of sub-contractors in the gun trade. BSA had something like a dozen plants just in the Birmingham area, plus a very large WW2 workforce to hand. I imagine the FTRs were a welcome use of spare capacity in the depressed 1950s....Quote:
Originally Posted by spinecracker
Thanks, Thunderbox - another tiny gap in my horrendously miniscule knowledge base plugged :). I didn't know that BSA was so spread out over Birmingham, or that its capacity would have been able to handle so many FTRs. Maybe these rifles are not as uncommon as I think - they just may not have surfaced yet in great numbers, which would make sense as it wasn't too long ago that Enfield scholars weren't even aware there was an FTR program at BSA in the 50's...
I'm glad that Spinecracker has found another reference to the disposal of the BSA rifle making machinery to Pakistan. BSA were merely (?) sub contractors to the Ministry of Supply, to make No4 rifles. Nothing more or less. And when the war ended, they were pushed aside so that with the reduced workload, the MoS factories could carry out the work. A bad choice really, to let Fazakerley loose, but there you go....... The rifle making machinery was supplied free by the MoS and on condition that it was kept on a care and maintenance basis for 10 years (I think.....), after which BSA could dispose of it. Which they did. The now redundant old Fazakerley No4 plant went into store in an old secure ex RAF bomb dump near Thame/Aylesbury until disposed of as scrap many years later. All/most of their L1A1 rifle stuff went to Lithgow and their poor quality Sterling SMG machinery was sold off to Sterling who made great use of most of it (but NOT the archaic induction brazing equipment that distorted the casings like they were going out of fashion) to up production and sell hundreds of thousands of the magnificent little L2A3 SMG's
Without any doubt, BSA used their machinery to do their own huge commercial FTR programmes and bought up vast amounts of small arms from UK Ordnance for commercial sale to whoever wanted vast amounts of it! They also did Browning .50 HMG's too because we have one. Captured from the Argentinian submarine (was it the Santa Fe.....?) that was left stranded in South Georgia and it clearly carries the BSA FTR 1956 marks.
There another load of useless Enfield rifle history
Incidentally, I was asked to look at an absolutely SUPERB - , and I mean superb, L42 based on a Mk1 BSA 1955 FTR. But had to tell the prospective buyer that good as it was (but the telescope still didn't boresight centrally...... a bad mistake!), the BSA 1950's FTR programme was a commercial enterprise for export and while it was also under the auspecies of the Crown Agents, it wasn't for the MoS who oversaw the rifle factories for the War Department as it was then. I suppose that some No4T's did pass through their net but quite how it would have re-entered the UK MoD in the 60's, then get flagged up in the L42 programme was just beyond me. And before you ask, the owner/seller later told me that he'd done it
Here's a typical BSA made barrel for the conversion program----1954 dated. The barrel on my 1957 dated Mk1/2 is just like this one--1954--so there is still time for the machinery to be sold to Wah in the mid-fifties, even with the program lasting into 1957.
By that time it must have been pretty difficult to flog bolt guns in even the backwaters of the AK47 world.
Here's the proof off the same barrel, though----if this is just commercial work, why the military proof?
I admit to trying to read the section on British proof rules in "The Standard Directory Of Proof Marks", but it gave me a headache.
-----krinko
Attachment 14824Attachment 14825
And yet examples do not seem to appear too often, except for Spike, who appears to be a magnet for these rifles lol. Spike's examples also appear to be in very good condition, so maybe some didn't get to Africa? I wonder how many are still in crates somewhere in Africa because who wants a bolt action when you can get an AK47? The one I have been looking at has the old "England" import mark and is in pretty good condition, with almost all of the suncorite(?) finish being intact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
As a matter of interest, I had the Ministry of Supply/ Crown Agents and BSA contracts story I mentioned confirmed to me this morning by a c.1952 Ministry of Supply engineer. They were not permitted to build new rifles after the ceassation of their last contract. They DID however manufacture spare parts under ongoing contracts to help in shortages etc etc and bottlenecks at Fazakerley. They also supplied Enfield with rifle spare parts when Enfield were doing rifle FTR work too
This is a lot to digest and I will have to readit twice or more to get the full picture. Thanks for all the effort put forward by everyone.
...MJ...
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...b625b8a6-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...fba98337-1.jpg
The factory managers at Enfield utilised BSA for their No4 rifle and Bren spare parts while they were doing FTR's. Only the Bren parts that they were geared up for of course....... There had always been a long standing friendship between the two at high level. Indeed, one of the main driving forces behind the Bren and Browning .303" machine gun went to work there JUST before the war. A chap called Reginald Shepherd. Yes, that's the man..........., the S of STEN gun. Knowing that he was shortly to leave the Army and would need a job, he also took to BSA the manufacture of the Boys rifle too. And it was also him that got BSA the massive Sten contract too. Today we call it 'networking'. Nice work if you can ge it
One last question on this thread that has dug up so much interesting information (I will have to put my anorak on before reading it again) - when did Fazakerley stop FTRing No.4 Mk.1s or Mk.1*s WITHOUT updating them to Mk.1/2 or Mk.1/3 configuration? (OK, that sounds like a confusing question, but it made sense when I was typing it!). Were rifles FTRed after 1949 without updating the trgger mounting arrangement? Any ideas?
I have a 1943 longbranch N04 mk1* action on a heavy cr 7.62 barrel with no FTR markings, bolt and action matching but with the action hung trigger of the later mods did some slip through the net ?
rhodders
Rhodders, it might be me, but can you re-phrase the question................. Did some slip through the net? If you mean were some Mk1*'s NOT upgraded/modified to Mk1/3 spec, then yes, hundreds of thousands of them!
Thats possibly a gunsmith-converted action - particularly if its been turned into a 7.62mm target rifle. Braze-on trigger blocks were available through the Trade at one time. E.g. AJ Parker used to turn out converted rifles with no FTR marks. Unlike with the military conversions, the blocks I've seen were pre-shaped for the forend screw.Quote:
Originally Posted by rhodders
That's interesting Thunderbox, the notion of pre machined trigger blocks ready to braze on.......................... Is that for real? I ask because the actual block in unfinished form was brazed in place then machined afterwards, on the rifle so that everything was in its exact diametric position, such as the axis pinhole, all in relation to the body and not the block.
We would occasionally see them loose in Base Workshops so we'd just knock them off and ZF the rifle. My friend fitted one to his No5 when he rebarrelled it to 7.62mm using an L4 Bren barrel
Ooooops, wrong word there. I meant geometric and not diametric
Thunderbox it was an A.J.Parker conversion ( as far as I can tell ) at least the swivels haven their name on them and the fultons of bisley stamp onon the barrel.
And yes I was asking if all the stocks of No4 Mk 1 rifles were FTR,d.
thanks