Krag Carbine Help..........(Pics)

Hello,
I'm a first time poster here, but this seems to be the best place for info.

I have the opportunity to buy a Krag Carbine from a friend. He is in his early 70's and the gun belonged to his Grandfather who had a long and distinguished millitary career including the Spanish American War. This carbine has been tucked away in his closet for years and it appears to be in excellent condition to me, but I'm surely not an expert. The receiver is marked " 1895", but the stock is stamped 1896, the S.N.-28026. It is missing the bar and ring, but otherwise I think it's all original. I'd appreciate some opinions on the overall condition and approx. value of this carbine. This will help make a decision to purchase or not. I have several pics that I'll try to post.
Thanks!

ImageShack Gallery

Stock is later than the receiver as you noted. Rear sight is a rifle sight. Bolt bits are from an 1892 rifle.

Bayonet is for an 1895 Mannlicher if I'm not mistaken. Most carbines don't have bayonets anyway - mounted dudes had swords.

So, no, it's not "all original." Then again I'm the one that's pretty convinced that 99% of the "original" US Krags, aren't.

Nice gun. I like it. Needs a bit of help but nothing too bad. Chuck might notice other bits.

Cheers.

If you don't buy it, others here sure would like to, including me!
I don't see much wrong with that carbine. The sling bar is not hard to come by. They run about $60-$75 on average. The rear screw in the sling bar cut out is not correct, Another easy fix.
Curious about the bolt. it looks like it has a model 1892 bolt sleeve (grooves around sleeve by the safety lever) Could you post some pictures of the bolt from different angles?
I usually don't price a piece from pictures but I have seen a lot less carbines with asking prices around $1500
It's a nice 1st group carbine that would be easily restored.
FWIW
Chuck
If you do not buy it, I would be interested in it.

Joe,
look at that rear sight again :0)
Chuck

Thanks Guys!

Here's the deal.......I think I'm going to buy this gun unless you guys point out something out of bounds with it. He let me take it home with me tonight to clean it up and check out the bore. It looks just great to me! I snapped a bunch more pictures and have posted a link below.

He also showed me his Grandfather's service record which included the Spanish American War, and he also had some metals from Cuba. So, I think this may be a real find!

I sent an email with the S.N. to the Springfield Armory Research Service to see if they have any records to authenticate military use of this carbine.

Please......This has been an Awesome learning process for me. If anything in the pics. jumps out at you......let me know. There is a wealth of knowledge here on this forum.

Thanks!

ImageShack Gallery

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chuck in idaho

Joe,
look at that rear sight again :0)
Chuck

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Yes, it was a quick look, there is a much nicer picture up now - nice carbine sight.

It's a nice gun regardless of the stock and bolt bits. The bolt bits are 1892 but that's an easy fix.

Quote:

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"I think I'm going to buy this gun unless you guys point out something out of bounds with it."

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Yes, do so. It's a nice carbine.

Just for safe measures:
Close the bolt and run a cleaning rod down to the bolt face. Mark the rod at the muzzel, take it out and measure it. Should be exactly 22".
Look at the base of the front sight where it is dove tailed into the barrel. The color of the solder/brazing should be a gold/bronze color, NOT silver.
Please let us know?
One more thing, Look in the but trap. How many holes do you see for the cleaning rods? At the 6:oclock postion is there a small dip in the wood? (cut for oiler)
The stock and cartouche date look OK too me for the serial number range.
(5MF, am I missing something?)

From your last set of pictures the bolt looks like a model 1892 bolt body/parts.
I've got the correct M1896 bolt if you want to do some tradeing.
I don't see anything major, looks like a good carbine. Let us know how things turn out.
Chuck

Thanks Chuck........I'll look at the things you listed tomorrow.

I read somewhere that the early 1896 carbines were stamped "1895" on the receiver. It would only make sense that if 1896 was the first year of the carbine that the stock would be stamped "1896" wouldn't it?

Here's something else that I found.........Looks like the same thing, with a serial number that is close to the one that I have here.

National Park Service - Detail Record

What are bolt bits ????

I found the info. that I spoke of in my earlier post. Does any of this apply to me? I don't know an extractor from a fillet......:lol::lol::lol:???

Norm Flayderman writes: "Variant Carbine. Known to collectors as the Model 1895 carbine and almost identical to the above except dated 1895 and 1896 on the receiver without the word MODEL. Made prior to the official adoption of the 'Model 1896.' Serial number range 25000 to 35000. Thumb safety smaller; trap in butt not cut for oiler; no fillet at junction of body and heel of extractor (rounded in the Model 1896 and square shaped in this early variant."

"The Model 1896 Carbine was approved May 23, 1895, but the first issue to troops occurred on March 10, 1896. By May of that year the entire cavalry was armed with the Model 1896 Carbine....Because the assembly of M1896 carbines started in 1895, early receivers of this model are marked 1895, for the year of manufacture." - William S. Brophy

Early 1896 carbine receivers were stamped "1895". I have s/n 26258 stamped "1895" The cartouche was stamped on the stock as a final acceptance stamp when the weapon was finished and had passed all tests.
The `96 carbine sights were not finished until early 1896 (IIRC) With that in mind "1895" stamped carbine receivers should have a "JSA/1896" cartouche.

Bolt Bits= all the parts attached to the bolt body i.e. extractor, sleeve etc.

Chuck

Yes, that information applys to your carbine. Model 1896 receivers were stamped "1895" "1896" and "MODEL 1896" They were all considered MODEL 1896 Krags.

Chuck

George, buy the gun. There are also other ways to gain information on that weapon.

Wayne

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chuck in idaho

The stock and cartouche date look OK too me for the serial number range.
(5MF, am I missing something?)

Chuck

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No, I was taking retarded pills yesterday. I see they were effective.

So the FY95-96 Chief of Ordnance report states that 7,111 magazine carbines were made "during the year ended June 30, 1896" [pg13]

The Springfield Armory report states that "The first issue of the carbines was made on the 10th of March preceding" [Arsenal of Freedom, Brophy, pg74]

So let's say that 7,111 carbine were made between the beginning of March and June 30 of 1896.

#24,685 is an early early 1896 carbine.
#35,594 is a late early 1896 carbine.

(there are also late early 1896 carbines and late late 1896 carbines).

Springfield reports 2,930 carbines (late early) were made in 96-97 (Brophy -pg83)

So 7,111 + 2,930 = 10041
35594-24685 = 10909

So our observed range is greater than the production range. Not a big deal as the receivers were out of order and thus rifles will be in there too; regardless, I think the range is pretty well known.

The carbine here is 28026. That would be maybe June of 1896.

24685 + 7111 = 31796

Lose a few due to our overages so I'll say maybe 31500 is June 31, 1896.

So June 1896.

Incidentally, there really shouldn't be any 1896 carbines with 1895 cartouches right? If the cartouches are calendar year, and March is our starting point....

June of 1896. Perhaps that makes up for my retarded pill information yesterday.

Buy the gun.

I now own this Carbine......:beerchug:

I made the purchase tonight !!! He is going to dig out all of his Grandfather's old "Service Papers" and Spanish American War Medals & give me copies and photos. I'll post updates as I find out more information.

Two weeks ago I didn't know a Krag from a hole in the ground........I still don't, but I know a hell of a lot more than when I started.

By the way........I measured the barrel as Chuck suggested and it's exactly 22", I checked the front sight and there is no silver solder of any kind, just blue on blue, and I checked under the trapdoor in the butt plate, and there is a single round hole, with three small holes drilled in the far end.

Thanks to everyone who helped me out ..........The internet and these forums really allow a sharing of knowledge that really wasn't possible in the past........and in my case sparked a new interest.

Congrats!

Rock Island's September Premier catalogues just arrived today. Page 259 of book two has serial 28,645. Pretty close to your new rifle. The lots are probably up in the online catalogue, if not they will be. Lot #3513.

Again, congrats.

Is it possible for the 1892 bolt to be correct for this carbine since it is one of the early ones?

Glad the deal worked out. Now the interesting part begins, researching the history that goes along with that carbine. Please keep us updated.
Chuck

I would not be too concerned about the bolt. It is an early bolt body and the follower has the square shoulder. Just try to find one if you need it. A little research will tell if these parts are too far out of production change ranges. Still very desireable parts for any Krag collector. Looks to be a very nice carbine. All it really needs is a saddle ring and a trip to a range.

M1903 rifle,
That's a good question, possibly but not likely. There were already 3300+ or so carbines made by the time s/n 28026 was made. The M92 bolt more than likely was a replacement for who knows why sometime during the carbines life.
just my thoughts
cii

Quote:

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Originally Posted by m1903rifle

Is it possible for the 1892 bolt to be correct for this carbine since it is one of the early ones?

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Not likely.

The knurling on the bolts was stopped on June 15th of 1895. A year is a long long time.

All the 1896 carbines earlier than that in my database have straight 1896 bolts. Note that the carbine in this thread has the extractor screw still also. Well, it's pretty much all 1892 bits.

I noted the trigger hung in early 1892 style. Another look at the pictures confirms that it has the early cocking piece.

That bolt is worth more than the "correct" 1896 would be. If you trade that bolt for an 1896, you should also receive some cash. It has some rare 1892 parts.

25K 1892s
80K 1896s.

Math works in your favor. Especially given that they rebuilt most of the 1892s and changed the bolts out. 1892 bolts are rare, 1896 bolts are not.

Cheers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chuck in idaho

Glad the deal worked out. Now the interesting part begins, researching the history that goes along with that carbine. Please keep us updated.
Chuck

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target,

I'll second that. The gun is a nice one, but in this case the story may be even better. Who was your friend's grandfather? What unit was he in? Looks like Cuban service. Did he leave any letters or a diary?

jn

Any possibility that the bolt is original to the carbine since it is one of the early ones?

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Originally Posted by jon_norstog

target,

I'll second that. The gun is a nice one, but in this case the story may be even better. Who was your friend's grandfather? What unit was he in? Looks like Cuban service. Did he leave any letters or a diary?

jn

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Out of respect for his family, I'd rather not post his name on a public forum. Not sure what harm it would do, but just in case.........I'll refrain....

He served in the 34th Mich. Infantry Company "M", but I'm told by his grandson that according to his pension records he also served in at least one Cavalry unit........I'll believe it when I see it in writing. Although he does have an old service photo of him mounted on a horse. The grandson has opened up access to me to copy or photograph anything that he has, and as soon as I get a chance I will. There are a bunch of Medals, and I'm sure that they will help me piece this story together. It may be wishful thinking on my part, but I am quite certain that he was in Cuba during the period that this carbine would have been used. I also am told that he served in the Phillipines (SP?) I know sometimes family lore gets streached a bit, so I'll keep plugging away and see what I can verify. I do know for a fact though that this carbine has been tucked away in the back of a closet for many years! That's kind of cool all by itself.

He was also a member of a group called the "Hannah Rifles", but I've not been able to find out much about them on the internet.

I've also been talking with some members of this forum who've been a great help so far, and may be able to help me find information going forward.

I think I'll keep this thread going and update it with new information as I find it. If anyone has any suggestions for sources of information, please shoot me a P.M. and I'll check it out.

Thanks!
Geo....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by m1903rifle

Any possibility that the bolt is original to the carbine since it is one of the early ones?

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Don't know......I asked the same question.

The 34th Michigan shipped on two transposrts, the Harvard and the Yale. Half of the unit landed June 30, 1898 and the other half came ashore July 1. They missed the main assault, but were moved up on the 2nd to help defend the heights.

I've read some mean-spirited things written by RAs about the 34th. Their leadership didn't have much experience in the soldierly arts of setting up a camp, keeping the latrines from getting out of hand, maintaining sanitation, etc.

Private martin Hoban wrote "We were marched around into a gully and prepared to go into the pits... holy smoke, it was hot! Four men dropped wounded the first thing.... By this time we were all under cover. We laid in the gully two hours and the bullets were getting thicker and thicker all the time. The only thing that saved us was that we had Springfield rifles with black powder and the regulars using smokeless powder would not let us go into the pits with them. We were marched back behind a big hill, where we were comparatively safe and allowed to rest. We lay down and slept just as peacefully as if we were at home and the bullets were flying around us to beat the band."

jn

Michigan Regiments Join the War
On April 20, 1898, President McKinley signed a joint resolution for war with Spain. On April 23, a call was issued for 125,000 volunteers. On May 25, a second call was issued for 75,000 men. Among those valiant volunteers, were the men that made up the 31st, 32nd, 33rd, 34th and 35th Michigan Volunteer Infantry.

Michigan Governor Hazen S. Pingree ordered out the National Guard, but due to federal law, each individual was required to volunteer as an individual. Practically all of the members of the National Guard volunteered, in total, over 4,800 men.

The men were mobilized at Camp Eaton in Island Lake; currently Island Lake State Park in Brighton, Michigan. In May 1898, the 31st and 32nd Regiments were sent to Chickamauga Park, Georgia, and Tampa, Florida, respectively. The 33rd and the 34th were sent to Camp Alger, near Washington, D.C. After the second call by President McKinley, the 35th Regiment was organized and sent to Camp Meade, Pennsylvania.

Soldiers Encounter Typhoid and Yellow Fever
The men in the southern camps suffered tremendously from sickness. Typhoid fever broke out at Chickamauga and the 31st Regiment was moved to Knoxville, Tennessee until it was sent to Cuba in January 1899. The 31st performed guard duty until April 1899 and disbanded in May 1899. In total, 20 men died from sickness while in service.

The 32nd Regiment never left the United States. They were encamped in Fernandian, Florida, but while being transported to Cuba, their ship collided with another and they were forced to disembark. They were later transferred to Fort McPherson, Georgia and disbanded between October and November 1898. In total, 20 men also died of disease.

The 33rd and 34th Regiments arrived in Cuba via the “Paris” and “Harvard” transport ships. They were assigned to General Duffield’s brigade, famous for defeating the Spaniards at Santiago. While they did not participate in the San Juan Hill fighting, they were engaged in the attack at Aguadores. Three men of the 33rd died of wounds, but yellow fever broke out in the camp at Siboney and 50 men died. The 34th Regiment suffered the most. Eighty-eight deaths were recorded with a large proportion of the deaths due to yellow fever.

Soldiers' Homecoming
The 33rd Regiment reached Detroit in September 1898 and disbanded between then and January 1899. The 34th Regiment disbanded between September 1898 and January 1899. The 35th Regiment never saw foreign service and although it remained in the United States, 23 of its men died from disease.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by target-panic

He served in the 34th Mich. Infantry Company "M",

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He was also a member of a group called the "Hannah Rifles", but I've not been able to find out much about them on the internet.

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Title: The Hannah rifles: Traverse City's brave boys of '98 ; their letters, diaries and correspondence during the Spanish American War.
Publisher: Con Foster Museum
Length: 25 pages

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"If You Could See How Happy We All Are, You Wouldn’t Worry At All:
The War of the Hannah Rifles, 1895*-1898” for Michigan Historical
Review, Central Michigan University, Mount Pleasant, Michigan,
April 1996.

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"During his senior year in high school Mr. Nerlinger was a member of the Hannah Rifles, a military organization, which later became Company M, Thirty-fourth Michigan Volunteer Infantry. He went to Cuba with this company in 1898, during the Spanish-American war." - The city of Detroit, Michigan, 1701-1922. By Clarence Monroe Burton, William Stocking, Gordon K. Miller, 1922.

Sounds like the guy's history is more accurate than normally found.

5MF
You never cease too amaze me with the information you dig up, thank you for taking the time to help target-panic out.
Chuck

Yeah, 5MF,

That bit about the Hannah Rifles really floored me. Where do you come up with that stuff? The RA officer who had such a black eye for the 34th Michigan was Lt. John H. Parker, who was in charge of the V Corps Gatling gun detachment. The two units were bivouacked next to each other.

Parker wrote a book, "the Gatlings of Santiago" which is a gold mine of SAW information. He generally didn't have much use for the volunteers, though. You can read what he said in Chapter 9 of his book. My own thought about the volunteer units is they were as good as their officers and NCOs. The 34th Michigan lost a lot of men to disease, men who might have lived if someone in the chain of command had just had even a little real soldiering experience.

Target Panic, your friend's grandfather was mustered out in late 1898, maybe January 1899. If he went to the Philippines, it was probably with another unit.

jn

It was fairly common for trrops that were signed up for Vol. units in "98" to reinlist for the PA. The roster of Grigby's Cowboys listed a number that were mustered out in the fall of 1898 and ended up in the PI in both Volunteer units and RA regiments. SD sent cavalry in 1899 0r 1900. No horses, just men and Krag carbines. There are several stereo views that picture them in the trenches.

Targwet Panic, list:

part of the story is in the medals. It's tough to say, one of those medals **could** be the Philippine campaign medal, probably not ( the round one with the red and blue ribbon) you'd have to look at the gong to be sure. The one that looks like it is 2-tone green could be a really dirty Spanish War medal. What is missing is the Cuban Campaign medal, which our man would have had if he was with the 34th in Cuba. That medal was recalled in 1913 because Spain objected to the US awarding a medal with Spanish colors (gold and red). Troops were reissued new medals with a blue and yellow ribbon.

Our mystery soldier could have turned in his old medal, then never got issued a new one. Or there may be a separate stash of the "really important" medals.

Another missing medal is the Michigan State Commemorative Medal a big brass gong, don't know if it had a ribbon or if so what color it was.

Our man was a busy vet. The medals with the bronze cross, and eagle separated by a US flag ribbon were the United Spanish War Veterans medals. I don't know why he has so many of them, maybe they handed them out to lodge officers or at national conventions?

What I don't see, besides the SAW medals that should be there, are the China Campaign medal (wide yellow, thin blue stripe on each side of ribbon; dragons, etc on the gong) and a for-sure Philippine Campaign medal.

5MF, I bet you have something to say about that!

jn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jon_norstog

Targwet Panic, list:

part of the story is in the medals. It's tough to say, one of those medals **could** be the Philippine campaign medal, probably not ( the round one with the red and blue ribbon) you'd have to look at the gong to be sure. The one that looks like it is 2-tone green could be a really dirty Spanish War medal. What is missing is the Cuban Campaign medal, which our man would have had if he was with the 34th in Cuba. That medal was recalled in 1913 because Spain objected to the US awarding a medal with Spanish colors (gold and red). Troops were reissued new medals with a blue and yellow ribbon.

Our mystery soldier could have turned in his old medal, then never got issued a new one. Or there may be a separate stash of the "really important" medals.

Another missing medal is the Michigan State Commemorative Medal a big brass gong, don't know if it had a ribbon or if so what color it was.

Our man was a busy vet. The medals with the bronze cross, and eagle separated by a US flag ribbon were the United Spanish War Veterans medals. I don't know why he has so many of them, maybe they handed them out to lodge officers or at national conventions?

What I don't see, besides the SAW medals that should be there, are the China Campaign medal (wide yellow, thin blue stripe on each side of ribbon; dragons, etc on the gong) and a for-sure Philippine Campaign medal.

5MF, I bet you have something to say about that!

jn

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I'll try and get close-up photos of the medals this weekend. There are some that are missing though. In one of his photos he is in full uniform, and is wearing a couple of Medals that his grandson does not have. One is shaped like a cross that is flared out at the ends.......it hangs from a bar of some type. The one Medal that you spoke of was very tarnished and hard to make out, but it looked like it had 3 soldiers standing on the front, and 3 soldiers sitting on the reverse side.......It looked like copper and not brass. There was a sharp shooter badge also. There was a couple of formal pictures of him in a Cavalry uniform, and a picture of his horse with a hand written note on the back......telling of his horse & the stables in the Philippines. There are many missing pieces of this puzzle.........but after 100 plus years we've got a pretty good start! Stay Tuned.........:banghead:

Quote:

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It's tough to say, one of those medals **could** be the Philippine campaign medal, probably not ( the round one with the red and blue ribbon) you'd have to look at the gong to be sure.

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I'd say unlikely.

Quote:

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The one that looks like it is 2-tone green could be a really dirty Spanish War medal.

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No. If we're looking at the same image, the one in the picture is green and black. The SpanAm is green and yellar.

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"What is missing is the Cuban Campaign medal, which our man would have had if he was with the 34th in Cuba."

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There are a number missing. Well, I'd say they're all missing. What I believe we're looking at there are actually encampment medals. So perhaps 1932, 1933, 1934, 1935, etc. The GAR started doing that and the SpanAm guys just kind of fell into it. I strongly suspect every one of those in the picture are encampment medals.

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"I don't know why he has so many of them, maybe they handed them out to lodge officers or at national conventions?

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See? You had it all along. :lol:

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"One is shaped like a cross that is flared out at the ends.......it hangs from a bar of some type."

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Really? SpanAm War was in 1898. The thing is that impetuous young men who ran down and enlisted to free the poor Cubans were young enough, if they enlisted in the regulars (as this guy did) to have served in WW1. Which seems likely given what you described sounds amazingly like the Croix de Guerre.

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Attachment 6420

Target, 5MF:

What happens to old medals? Unless they get stashed away, kids get them and wear them in school plays, or at halloween, or just around. We sure did that when we were kids, and lost a few, too.

I got the usual run of giedunk medals when I served, 1966-70. I have one medal that means something, that I keep pretty secure, although I've lost the ribbon bar. When I'm gone it will probably get tossed out.

If the man's dress uniform is around (kids get into those too!) it may have the full load of ribbons.

Just a thought.

jn

So true John.

Someone's going to be in big trouble if the LADY OF THE HOUSE sees that nasty GUN on her pretty PINK BEDSPREAD!

OK.......... I went over to the grandson's house tody. I asked if I could take close-up pictures of all of the medals (that he still has) as well as service photos of our soldier. Hopefully some of you know what you are looking at and can help me find a few clues to the history of this old carbine. The link is attached below.......... If anything jumps out at anyone, please let me know! I believe you can click on the pics to enlarge.

Thanks!

Picasa Web Albums - George - Medals.......Etc

Target-P!

tHE HEART OF NATURE'S playground! Now, THAT'S a medal! Seriously, though I think I see the ribbon bar for the China campaign, also for the Cuban campaign, the Spanish Campaign Medal. the China ribbon is at the bottom of your last photo. I also see the Army of occupation medal. Most of what you see is what we used to call "giedunk medals" 'cause they were cheap and everyone got them.

In the last picture you can see the "rainbow medal" ribbon. It was an international decoration issued by the allies after the Great War. 14 of the 16 allied countries issued it in one version or another. I think it just means our soldier served during WW 1. He was getting on in years by then and may have been a reserve or something. Some of my great uncles had that decoration, "among others." Our family decided to try the USMC in that war, so I've seen that ribbon. Well, live (if you're lucky) and learn. Or, why I chose the Coast Guard.

The victory medal was issued to any soldier or sailor who served between aPRIL 6, 1917 AND nOVEMBER 11 1918 in Europe or between November 12, 1918 and Aug 5, 1919 in European Russia (like the Murmansk expedition, where US soldiers carried Mosin-Nagants)or Nov. 23 1918 to April 1 1920 in Siberia. Two and a half million of these medals were issued.

back to our soldier. The US drew down troops from the Philippines for the China Campaign, an early example of the rationale behind overseas empire. A few thousand of the 140,00 or so US troops in the Philippines went to China. There was some pretty tough fighting in front of Tientsin, he may have written home about it if he was there. But as usual, it was USMC 9and a bunch of sailors!) that did the heavy lifting at Tientsin. At this point I would say the things to look for are letters home or a diary. I hope the family appreciates the work you are doing.

5MF,our man would have been pushing 40 when the call went out for the Great War. Did he serve? The ribbon says yes. Gould have been home front.

jn

Target Panic,

Forgot to mention, the Philippine Campaign ribbon is there, and here's an interesting one: the Mexican Service Medal. Our soldier had to have served in:
Veracruz Expedition: April 24 to November 26, 1914
The Punitive expedition, March 14, 1916 to February 7, 1917
Buena Vista, Mexico: December 1, 1917
San Bernardino Canyon, Mexico: December 26, 1917
La Grulla, Texas: January 8 – January 9, 1918
Pilares, Chihuahua: March 28, 1918
Nogales, Arizona: November 1 - 26, 1915, or August 27, 1918
El Paso, Texas and Ciudad Juárez, Chihuahua: June 15 – June 16, 1919

Maybe this is where he served as a cavalryman? I think some of the Mexican Expedition troops may still have been carrying Krags. 5MF?

There are 2 other ribbons in the last photo I don't recognize: the two on the left either side of the Mexican Service ribbon.

I think we can conclude that our soldier was a real brownboot, a professional who served around the world back before the Great War turned the soldierly profession into a ghastly dance of death. He got lucky, did all that service without picking up a purple heart.

We've got him in Cuba, 1898, mustered out. He's back in the service, probably the Army by 1900, and in the Philippines when the China Relief Expedition is put together. He carried a Krag all the way to Peking, probably. He was probably in the 9th or the 14th Infantry regiments. If he was in the 9th he may have participated in the battle for Tientsin.

He must have changed units by 1916. None of the China Relief units were sent into Mexico (although he may have been at Nogales or some other place). He would have served under Pershing and Patton. (Patton was assigned to Pershing's staff) He may still have been carrying a Krag carbine.

And finally we have him probably in a home front unit during the Great War.

Well, that's all I've got for now. Good luck following up on the story. I'll bet there is stuff from China and Mexico lying around the family's house, maybe they've forgotten it was "granpa" who brought it back.
jn

Thanks Jon,

For helping me piece all of this together.......You seem to really know your stuff!!! If anyone else has anything to add.......Please do...:help:....

His grandson said he was a "Man's man".......I guess he knew his way around a bottle of whiskey, and never backed down from a bar fight.

The family has the paperwork to send to the VA to get information on his service record. Is there a way for them to inquire about which medals were actually awarded to him? They'd like to put together a display / shadow box with everything in it (my idea ;))???? It looks like at least a couple of campaign medals are missing from the collection, as well as the one that looks like a flared out cross in the standing uniform photo (not sure what that one is?).

Target-panic,

I would say the service records are the place to start. There was a fire and they lost a lot of them, unfortunately. The reocrds should show what medals he had or was entitled to. Replacements are available for some of them, or else there's eBay. Some medals are engraved around the dge with the recipients name or service number ...

I think you could put together a pretty decent itinerary or CV if you know which units he was with. You know the units, you can find pictures of the actions they were in. If the family has letters or a diary, those can be used to complete the picture.

good luck!

jn

ps: I'm Ok with researching but I'm just a hacker .. 5MF, Dick Hosmer, cii, now **those** guys really know their stuff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jon_norstog

Target-panic,

I would say the service records are the place to start. .....
I think you could put together a pretty decent itinerary or CV if you know which units he was with. You know the units, you can find ......

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The next step, as I see it is to see what the connection is between the weapon and the soldier. You've got the serial number, with any luck you'll get the units our soldier served with. A couple possibilities: he carried that weapon, maybe in Mexico, maybe earlier, and managed to keep it when the Springfields were issued. Second possibility, he got attached to the service arm that he carried most of his career and picked one up from Bannermans or some other source.

There are people on this list who can tell you what units your carbine (if that's what it really is) was issued to. If they match up, then you most probably will be able to document your Krag and tie it to the soldier/cavalryman who carried it. That's gotta be worht something.

good luck. get those units.

jn

Target-Panic;

I have not been able to identify two of those ribbons. Our soldier might have seen some combat, might have been wounded, even. The purple heart wasn't reauthorized until 1932. It was granted retroactively to soldiers if their CO put them in for it, but our man was long gone from the service.

His service records were probably destroyed in the 1973 fire at the National Archives Record Center in Missouri. So i'm thinking your best bet is going to be letters, diaries, scraPBOOKS, and such that may still be kicking around his grandchildren's home.

If they are up for it, it could be a fun project for you and give something back to the family as well.

Good luck!

jn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jon_norstog

Target-P!

5MF,our man would have been pushing 40 when the call went out for the Great War. Did he serve? The ribbon says yes. Gould have been home front.

---

Jon, your observations there are astute.

I'm aware of a number of recently retired soldiers whom were recalled for duty in WW1. I guess a few "not so recently" retired ones also. The same thing happened in WW2. I have two discharges for my grandfather - one from his army service in France during the great war, the second from the Coast Guard from the big one. I don't think he was much of a volunteer in either. Maybe the second? I know he was drafted the first time and didn't enjoy himself. The Coast Guard service was "shore duty" in his home-town guarding a shipyard. Every WW1 vet they could get to do those duties freed up a younger man to be sent elsewhere. Long service NCOs, recently retired, would (I'd think) be in demand. The peacetime army of pre-1917 was very small and the expansion of 1917 was tremendous. Experienced men would be a commodity one would be after.

I have a book on medals and ribbons but I'd have to dig for it. I have no idea if it covers that era - I haven't really looked at it. I didn't buy it, it was a gift; not an area that I'm particularly interested in. It'd likely be easier to contact somebody that specializes in that field for those two ribbons. Your knowledge of the ribbons exceeds mine.

During the Vietnam war the Vietnamese government awarded ribbons - one is white and green and another has a tree branch on it (just remembering them from when I was in service). I'm aware of Korean awarded medals, to US troops, from their war also. I guess it could be possible for those to be awarded by another country; I don't know, haven't studied those.

That the gentleman in question was in the cavalry is a given - I already gave OP the units some time ago. While that wasn't very long ago I didn't store that information in my head but think it was service in both the 1st and 6th Cavalry - after his duty with the Michigan unit.

I haven't been responding as I really haven't had anything to add. I did the basic research on his units, that didn't take a lot of effort, but didn't really care to dig too deeply. I have other stuff taking up my research time right now so detailed digs are not really possible at this time.

Besides, you've been covering it nicely.

Cheers.

5MF,

Did you get those units from the rifle serial number? Just curious. My thought is our soldier may have gone to the Philippines as an infantry man, probably the 9th or 14th Regiments. They were the first ones sent in from the Philippines for the China Relief Expedition.

The 6th was brought over from the States and missed the fighting at Taku Forts and Tientsin, but was there for the assault on the walls of Peking. It was only after the China Campaign that the 6th went to the Philippines. There were several CMOH awards to members of that unit.



1st Cav was in the Philippines in 1901-2, but not China and mexico
7th Cav was in the Philippines 1904-7 and 1911-15, then in Mexico, but not in China
6th Cav. was in Cuba, the Philippines, China and mexico. They also served in Yellowstone park, preventing buffalo poaching. They were sent off to France but didn't make it in time for the main event.

Our man could have spent his entire time in service with the 6th and gotten the ribbons you see. That might be logical, since the 6th was in Cuba as well - he could have made some contacts and gotten in on the word of a friend.

Thanks for keeping this in mind!

jn

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jon_norstog

5MF,

Did you get those units from the rifle serial number?

---

No. I don't have the serial number. Let's leave that one there please? External considerations. Thanks in advance.

Quote:

---

Just curious. My thought is our soldier may have gone to the Philippines as an infantry man, probably the 9th or 14th Regiments. They were the first ones sent in from the Philippines for the China Relief Expedition.

The 6th was brought over from the States and missed the fighting at Taku Forts and Tientsin, but was there for the assault on the walls of Peking. It was only after the China Campaign that the 6th went to the Philippines. There were several CMOH awards to members of that unit.

1st Cav was in the Philippines in 1901-2, but not China and mexico
7th Cav was in the Philippines 1904-7 and 1911-15, then in Mexico, but not in China
6th Cav. was in Cuba, the Philippines, China and mexico. They also served in Yellowstone park, preventing buffalo poaching. They were sent off to France but didn't make it in time for the main event.

Our man could have spent his entire time in service with the 6th and gotten the ribbons you see. That might be logical, since the 6th was in Cuba as well - he could have made some contacts and gotten in on the word of a friend.

---

Perhaps covering that a an abstract level is best. The number of people coming into a collection along those lines is pretty small. Family or not, it's a fascinating glimpse into the time. I end up with "family" collections on with a frequency that I find disturbing. Not my "family," but other people's family. Descendants, not interested, simply sell it off as worthless old stuff. I'm preaching to the choir here though.

The set is unique and complete enough where it really should be researched. The original poster doesn't have the access to the documents, nor perhaps the experience (I'm assuming on both based on this thread), to conduct the basics of that research. You've shown the interest and you've displayed the access to some of the sources that would be needed to begin the search. What really needs to happen, given the original poster's understood reluctance to provide a name, is perhaps for you and him to get into contact so you'll have the information necessary to begin the search.

Original poster: I'm not sure you understand the potential value of that research. A trooper with cavalry service, during the time in question, is kind of rare. The additional items simply make it more so. Adding in the carbine and the unit history, this is, in my opinion, a collection that really needs to be researched. My suggestions (take them for what they're worth):

1) Work with Jon to get the unit assignments straight. A timeline needs to be developed and all the source items fully investigated.
2) Pay Springfield Research Service the fee to see if there is a record of that Krag. It would be well worth it as they potentially might have a record for that gun. If the record also results in that trooper's name, you've achieved Krag nirvana. Not all records exists, its a minority of the guns made, but it's more than worth it for that gun.
3) If the results of #1 and #2 above seem to show promise, it might then be worthwhile to get a survey of other possible records.

I'm currently pretty buried in some research. My ability to dig into that research, without breaks, is something I have to watch as much of it is very dry. So I come up for air - more to prevent sloppy mistakes than anything. Anyway, I don't have a lot of research time free right now. That said, this is obviously a very interesting find. If you run into something as a result of #1 or #2, I'm available for advise - assuming I can offer any. SRS's records are, and this is the understatement of the century, more complete than mine at the current time. I don't see a change to that for some time if ever. I'm hitting different records really. I do have access to a lot of "fee based" information services.

Regardless. The two of you should get together and see where #1 and #2 go. I can provide some help after you've done that. I have access to service records, etc. Not all but sometimes it's surprising.

The collection is very interesting. There are some really interesting possible paths it may take and they should be pursued. If that was my collection, and it's not and no this isn't any type of request for anything, I'd follow it. Even if it required some paid professional research. No, I am not a paid professional researcher - what I'll do is free. I'm interested in where it ends up.

Quote:

---

Thanks for keeping this in mind!

jn

---

You're the one doing the work thus far. It's made for an interesting read. Thank you for taking the time.

A last note: it's going to be hard on the rest of the board, those that have been following this, for it to go off-line. Please let us know what you turn up.

Cheers.

Cheers and good luck.

5MF, Target-panic,

At this time it probably depends on the family. Do they want to pursue the matter? History sometimes reveals what we would prefer to conceal.

The other possibility is to bring in a local historical society and/or university history department. The story just keeps getting better, and it would probaby make a pretty decent master's thesis.

I agree that what you have may be pretty rare. Our soldier sounds like the kind of guy who could have figured out a way to keep his service arm if he wanted to. Did he?

There's some other interesting things in his history. He was really involved in the Span-Am war vets. The OP did already contact me OL with a picture of the headstone. He was buried under a 34th Michigan stone, not one of those white marble RA jobs like you see at Arlington. His choice? A matter of convenience for the family?

Anyway, I plan on helping out to the extent I can, all I am asked to do.

jn

Thanks Jon & 5MF,

Sorry for my absence........been involved in some family stuff for a couple of weeks......followed by a vacation.

I am absolutely a greenhorn when it comes to the subject of research. I don't even know where to start. I did contact the Springfield Research Service shortly after I purchased the carbine. I've exchanged several emails, and have been told that it could take several months to find anything conclusive. I'm more than willing to pay a fair price for this information, and yes, I do realize the value as it relates to this carbine.

I talk to the Grandson every couple of days on a social basis, and I'm sure that he'd be willing to help in any way that he could. He has the request forms for his grandfather's service records, but I don't know if he's completed them yet. I backed off on the subject a bit because I was starting to feel like a bit of a pest. He has shown me everything that he has.....I think.
I think some of the medals are missing, because there are some in the photos, that are not in his possession. He also has a "Dress Sword" that I may or may not have mentioned, but he stated that he wants it to go to his son. I don't think I submitted a picture of the "Naval Brigade Certificate" I believe this was dated 1912? I feel like I've sort of hit a dead end. I'm sure there is more information out there, but I just don't know where to start.

Remember, before I stumbled across this carbine in the back of his closet, I wasn't the least bit interested in this subject. However, I've collected sporting arms for a number of years. I knew as soon as I laid eyes on this carbine, it was something special. (1) Because I had never seen one like it before. (2) I knew by looking at the amount of bluing on it, that for it's age it was in great condition. This is when I turned to the world wide web and discovered and joined this forum.

Thanks for everything that you've done to help so far.......I'll keep digging to see what else that I can find.

target-p,

The next thing to do is wait, I guess. See what SRS says about the rifle. The Naval Brigade certificate makes me think the man might have been out of the service for a while and joined a kind of CG Auxiliary or Sea Scouts type quasi-military association. He may have been conscripted during the great callup of 1917-18. The service records will tell, providing they weren't destroyed in the fire.

The second thing to look for is reports filed by the units he is likely to have served in. Iwoould look into any reports I could find that involved the 6th Cavalry. Our man would have probably been an NCO (unless he got busted down) and thus his name more likely to show up in reports. He has a fairly distinctive name, that helps.

The "dress sword' could be a U.S. Cavalry issue sabre. Post a photo, there are people on the list who can identify it. Or it could be from the Knights of Columbus!


There is definitely a story here.

good luck, and keep at it.

jn

Well............I may have some more information on our soldier shortly. I talked with his grandson today, and told him that I was trying to establish a connection between the carbine and his grandfather, and that I had also contacted the SRS. He thought that it was a great Idea, and then stated that he had a couple more items that he would look for. He said that he thought that he had some handwritten notes about his grandfather's service written by his father....(the soldiers son). He said that he thought that it was tucked away in a safety deposit box at the bank. Maybe there will be some information in these papers that will help in my search. I also found a couple of more pictures that I had taken of the whole collection of item that included the sword and a few other items. If anyone sees anything conclusive in here please shoot me a PM or post a comment.......Thanks!

Picasa Web Albums - George - Krag Carbine

Target-panic,

the postcards and notes are great. I was looking through the reports from the China campaign - no mention of our soldier, so he didn't get hurt and he didn't commit any crimes, at least that he got caught for. If he was cav at that time, he **had** to have been in the 6th. There was one officer from the 7th who was an aide-de-camp to Chaffee; no mention of anyone from the 1st.

It was originally planned that the forces would be built up to about 80,000 troops. The First and the Seventh were going to be sent out ... those plans were made when it was thought that the legations had been overrun and everyone wiped out. Then they started getting messages from inside the walls, that the legations were holding out. Plans changed, and they went for broke with what they had.

Our soldier had to be on the ground to get that ribbon. He could have been in the 9th or 14th infantry, the 6th cavalry or the 5th Artillery. If he was Army, that's about it.

jn

PS. Scans of the postcards and photos would help identify the ships and places, transcripts or scans of the mesages would be great, too.

Jon,

I believe that I sent you this info;

He enlisted in the regular army (1st Cavalry) on 16 Apr 1902. (Discharged from the 6th Cavalry, 15 Apr, 1905 in Texas).

Would this fall into the right time frame.....for China???

His grandson also mentioned service in Mexico when I talked with him the other day. What would that have been for?

Target-p

Some elements of the 6th stayed on in China after the campaign. He got the Campaign Medal, so he was there between June 20, 1900 and May 27, 1901. If he had gotten a citation, there would be a star in the ribbon, I believe. He may have reenlisted in 1902 after a "shore break."

I believe the 6th returned from its second PI tour in 1910 and was assigned to patrol the Mexican border. It went to Mexico with Pershing, chasing Pancho Villa. It was involved in the fighting against Mexican government forces, who were [U]also[U] chasing Villa.

There is a museum of the 6th cavalry regiment in Georgia. I might contact them to see what kind of information they might have.

their address: info@6thcavalrymuseum.com

It is getting to be a pretty interesting story.

jn

Wow......The grandson told me the other day that his father had said something about his grandfather "Chasing Pancho Villa". I thought this was insignificant......or maybe just a term used to describe service in Mexico so I failed to mention it.

Target-panic, & list:

The Mexican expedition was kind of a fiasco. They never came close to catching Villa, although Lt George Patton caught and killed Julio Cardenas. The Carranza government wanted to see an end to Villa, but not at American hands. there were some fights, including a pretty heavy one at Carrizal between the 7th cavalry and the 10th infantry on the US side, and a company of Mexican Army soldiers. In the communications that followed between Mexican military and Pershing, it was indicated that the Mexicans would accept no movements of US forces except toward the border.

Meanwhile - this was the end of 1916 and into January 1917, the Germans were feeling out the Mexican government on the subject of an alliance. The "Zimmermann telegram" put things into perspective for the US government, and it was decided that Mexico was not the enemy.

Pershing thought the whole thing was a fiasco. I suspect if you can find some letters home you'll read some choice comments.

jn

Shooting Balnks here!

I got a reply from the 6th Cavalry museum at Ft. Oglethorpe:

www.6thcavalrymuseum.com/

They don't have much for personnel records, nothing on our soldier. I guess we're on our own. Target panic sent me this OL:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...609C946197D6CF

Which explains where E,F,G&H troops were when the s**t hit the fan. In any case, they split the regiment further, keeping I,K,L,& M troops in China and sending the rest back to the Philippines.

The NY Times archives are a great source, thanks, target.
jnJ

I got some handwritten notes from the grandson today. They were given to him by his father. Maybe this will help. Jon & 5MF let me know if this helps in any way.

Enlisted: May 16th 1898 Co. M 34th U.S.V. Inf.
Discharged: December 9th 1898.

Enlisted: January 23rd 1899 Troop B. 6th U.S. Cav.
Discharged: January 17th 1902

Enlisted: April 16th 1902 Troop G. 1st U.S. Cav.
Discharged: April 15th 1905

As I said before there is evidence of later Naval service also.......I'll see what I can find out about that.

Those dates don't, with the exception of the last discharge, mesh with the official enlistment records. Not that that really matters that much. Maybe it does? I don't think so. Official records can be wrong. Family records can be wrong. It would take work to confirm either.

That last discharge date matches. The record also noted it was in Texas. We know he was a cop shortly thereafter. That and the marriage bits.

So I guess I'm perplexed. What are you looking for specifically?

Is a guy. A guy who served his time in the military. Some state and some federal. Some as a grunt and some as a horse soldier.

Is a guy with a Krag carbine. A carbine with a strange collection of parts on it if I recall it right.

Is a guy and a gun which are pretty close to impossible to match together without records.

Did the guy take his gun home? Did he buy it at Big Lou's Sporting Goods in Chicago when he lived there in WW1? Hard to say. Without a record, impossible to say.

If the record that ties that gun to that dude doesn't exist, it doesn't exist. Most don't. If it does, bingo. B, I, N, G, O. Hard to play that game though.

Actually, now that I think about it, positive information isn't the only kind. Negative information works too.

It might be impossible to determine that the gun and the dude did time together. That said, it is more likely that it can be proven that they didn't. It's more likely, on the face of it, that they didn't serve together. That can be confirmed much more easily.

Consider it a game. Tell me how?

<5MF playing Jeopardy music.>

Do do do do, do do do, do do do do, dooo, do do do do do, do do do do, do do do, do do do do do, do, do. Bomp, bomp.



Time's up. What is your answer?

No, I'm sorry, "I don't know" is not the answer.

While records for that carbine might not exist, what should exist is the records of the issue of the Model 1899 carbines to the 6th and 1st Cavalry. Get it? Your dude has the '96. Those were likely passe by then. Simply no longer stylish. Not the model that the cool kids were getting uncle Sammy to provide.

So, find the issue records for 1899 carbines to those two Cav units. If those pre-date 1905, I'd go with "Lou's Sporting Goods" myself.

Your mileage may, and will, vary.

If it helps, I really do hope that the 1896s were still with the 1st at that time. That'd be the coolest outcome.

Cheers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 5MadFarmers

Those dates don't, with the exception of the last discharge, mesh with the official enlistment records. Not that that really matters that much. Maybe it does? I don't think so. Official records can be wrong. Family records can be wrong. It would take work to confirm either.

That last discharge date matches. The record also noted it was in Texas. We know he was a cop shortly thereafter. That and the marriage bits.

So I guess I'm perplexed. What are you looking for specifically?

Is a guy. A guy who served his time in the military. Some state and some federal. Some as a grunt and some as a horse soldier.

Is a guy with a Krag carbine. A carbine with a strange collection of parts on it if I recall it right.

Is a guy and a gun which are pretty close to impossible to match together without records.

Did the guy take his gun home? Did he buy it at Big Lou's Sporting Goods in Chicago when he lived there in WW1? Hard to say. Without a record, impossible to say.

If the record that ties that gun to that dude doesn't exist, it doesn't exist. Most don't. If it does, bingo. B, I, N, G, O. Hard to play that game though.

Actually, now that I think about it, positive information isn't the only kind. Negative information works too.

It might be impossible to determine that the gun and the dude did time together. That said, it is more likely that it can be proven that they didn't. It's more likely, on the face of it, that they didn't serve together. That can be confirmed much more easily.

Consider it a game. Tell me how?

<5MF playing Jeopardy music.>

Do do do do, do do do, do do do do, dooo, do do do do do, do do do do, do do do, do do do do do, do, do. Bomp, bomp.



Time's up. What is your answer?

No, I'm sorry, "I don't know" is not the answer.

While records for that carbine might not exist, what should exist is the records of the issue of the Model 1899 carbines to the 6th and 1st Cavalry. Get it? Your dude has the '96. Those were likely passe by then. Simply no longer stylish. Not the model that the cool kids were getting uncle Sammy to provide.

So, find the issue records for 1899 carbines to those two Cav units. If those pre-date 1905, I'd go with "Lou's Sporting Goods" myself.

Your mileage may, and will, vary.

If it helps, I really do hope that the 1896s were still with the 1st at that time. That'd be the coolest outcome.

Cheers.

---

Wow!!!! Thanks for the looooooong answer. I can't help but feel somewhat of a rant in your lines. I guess I'm passing on the little bits of information as it is acquired from the soldiers family............with the hope that someone more experienced than myself might see a "clue" that might somehow tie the carbine to service.........or soldier. I'm starting to see from your last couple of posts that this may be a "pie in the sky " notion at best. Of course how would I know this..............never even held a Krag until I stumbled across this carbine a couple of month ago.

If it's from Big Lou's Sporting Goods........That's fine. It's still a nice carbine (mismatched bolt bits aside). It just seems to me........when looking at the whole collection...........that service use could be possible.......but what do I know anyway???

To 5MF, Jon & Chuck and others on this site that I've exchanged PM's with, "Thanks" for helping out the novice. The messege that I'm getting is it may be time to let this thread fade off into the sunset.....

Thanks Again!

It would be interesting to find out how the gentleman got the medal with the green and black ribbon. It is a Serbian medal issued in 1920 to commemorate the 1915 retreat of the Serbian army through Albania and eventual evacuation to the Greek island of Korfu. Now you wil really have to do some research!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by target-panic

Wow!!!! Thanks for the looooooong answer. I can't help but feel somewhat of a rant in your lines. I guess I'm passing on the little bits of information as it is acquired from the soldiers family............with the hope that someone more experienced than myself might see a "clue" that might somehow tie the carbine to service.........or soldier. I'm starting to see from your last couple of posts that this may be a "pie in the sky " notion at best. Of course how would I know this..............never even held a Krag until I stumbled across this carbine a couple of month ago.

If it's from Big Lou's Sporting Goods........That's fine. It's still a nice carbine (mismatched bolt bits aside). It just seems to me........when looking at the whole collection...........that service use could be possible.......but what do I know anyway???

To 5MF, Jon & Chuck and others on this site that I've exchanged PM's with, "Thanks" for helping out the novice. The messege that I'm getting is it may be time to let this thread fade off into the sunset.....

Thanks Again!

---

No, not a rant. Just thinking out loud. Don't get discouraged. Dig. We're telling you not to get your hopes up, documents are scarce, but that doesn't mean to stop digging. One never finds gold unless one digs hard.

This I know as I'm a digger.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 5MadFarmers

No, not a rant. Just thinking out loud. Don't get discouraged. Dig. We're telling you not to get your hopes up, documents are scarce, but that doesn't mean to stop digging. One never finds gold unless one digs hard.

This I know as I'm a digger.

---

OK........I don't mind digging at all. It's where to start that is the problem. I've done a zillion Google searches.........but I guess I could walk right by some key information and not even know what I'm looking for.....:sos:

Target Panic, guys,

Well, the enlistment dates work out pretty well up to 1905. Our soldier was in one of the companies that was left behind in Tientsin while I,K,L&M went on the march to Peking (beijing). He then went to the Philippines.I may be able to dig up some action reports.

Troop L of the 6th was Lt.jg Pershing's first unit, which may be one reason he wanted them along in Mexico in '16-17, and found a way to get them to France, if only for rear-echelon duty, in the spring of '18.

As you can see, I am more interested in the soldier than the gun. 5MF is probably right about it not being our man's service weapon. But maybe not?

I for one am enjoying working on this case. I think we should keep the thread going - I meAn it's got almost 2,00 hits, that's gotta be some kind of record. I thought I would get some assistance from a real military historian, see if he has some ideas about where to find records.

Having the units helps a lot. With that we can pin down some of the actions our man was in and maybe discuss what went down, what he would have seen and maybe done when the s**T hit the fan.

Target,

you've been an angel!

jn

Thanks Jon,

I'm frustrated though............ As I said before my knowledge of how to do research is limited to numerous Google Searches. All this seems to do is confuse me more....:banghead:. I started thinking about the Michigan Naval Brigade certificate in the collection..........It said something about him becoming an Ensign (SP?) and I think it was dated 1911. This would mean that he may have joined sooner......correct? This may fill in some of the time gap between 1905 -1911. I thought that I read somewhere in one of my Google stupors that the Michigan Naval Brigade was made part of the National Guard......who went to Mexico in 1916??? It's a long shot I know...:help:!!!
Some of the postcards in the collection had pictures of ships on them. I'll have to take a closer look and see what they say. I hate to bother the grandson right now though..........He's 70 and just had a heart catherization (SP?)......he had some complications the other night, and took a ride by ambulance to the ER. I guess he's doing OK now though........but I think I'll give him a while before I bother him.

Also......To anyone following this thread. I'm missing one of the saddle ring screws. If someone has an extra......shoot me a PM and maybe we can work something out.......:beerchug:

Target-P

I'll give it a look as to the National Guard. I'm thinking more along the lines of consistent though intermittent service in the 6th Cavalry. My plan is to contact a US Army historian and see what they think or can point me toward. Knowing which troops our soldier served in is a plus. The troops, if not the trooper, will be listed in the annual reports.

Yeah, give the grandson a little rest ...

good luck!

jn

The bayonet is not an 1895 Mannlicher, the blade's sharp edge should be on the same side as the muzzle ring.

I am looking for a front sight for a Krag carbine. Does anyone know where I can get one?

Thought I'd just drop in and see how everyone is doing. The guy that I bought the carbine from is in Texas for the winter. So I have no new information. I kind of hit a dead end.........I really like it though. I have not shot it yet. I'd like to deer hunt with it sometime. I got two real nice bucks this Fall.........never thought to use the Krag.

Target-P,

Glad to hear you are still on it. I haven't really tried any new tricks either. I was thinking about just contacting one of the Army's historians. The 6th cav museum is really not research-oriented I'm afraid, just a bunch of old guns and a couple stuffed horses.

My curiosity is up, and once it is up I never give up until I am satisfied ...

Well, the Krag is almost too much gun for deer, IMHO. Others will disagree but we have seen a creeping escalation in the amount of firepower that is considered appropriate for deer and big game hunting. The Krag was at one time consedered just right for elk, moose and big bear. Now everyone is looking to step up from the puny 300 win magnum to something with a little more killing power.

It's the triumph of marketing over common sense.

rant rant rave ....

jn

I have a 30-40 krag. It was my grandpas. But it has no markings on it. And i'm almost positive its a springfield Because it has the magazine cut off on it. And the Denmark ones don't have the cut off.

Those medals and photos are awesome! The Krag is not too bad either. You have some real history there. What the collectors call "provenance", where the firearm has a traceable history connected to one person. This makes this carbine much more valuable than mine, which I bought off the rack at Cabela's. The medals, photos,service record and carbine would, no doubt, sell for big bucks at an auction house like Julia's.

I just wanted to drop in and say "Hello" to all of you. I haven't bben able to find much on my carbine or the soldier that owned it. Hi grandson is back home for the summer now, and I hope to start digging again (with his help). If anyone has any suggestions as to where I might do some research on this carbine i'd sure appreciate the info. The SRS didn't come up with anything yet, but I'm still optimistic.
Thanks for all of the great remarks!

Target-Panic,

glad to hear you are still on the case. I tried a coupleangles as well, no luck. I would look for a stash of letters and pictures, maybe in someone's attic. That's where a lot of stuff that's to useless to keep, too important to toss, ends up. If I were to bet,. I'd bet he turns up on the roster of the 6th Cavalry

good luck!

jn

target-Pnic:

This is a recent exchange from the Culver list:
Target Panic,

The question that we were framing is this: "Did our soldier bring back his service weapon, or did he buy one later from Bannermans or some other source?" I am leaning toward the former, because I seem to have run into a family-documented "bring-back" Krag.

I'll post more later.
Below is a current exchange from the Culver list:
************************************************** ****************

" brought back"

Wednesday I went down to the local yuppie bistro to have an India Pale Ale during their hapy hour. I ran into Dave, a BLM district sub-office manager, who asked me where I'd been last few weeks.

I told him about our elk hunt.he asked me what I was using for a rifleand I mentioned the Krag. Well, that got him started. His son just inherited the family heirloom Krag, through the kid's maternal grandfather. Dave wants me to help get the kid set up with brass and shells, for shooting and hunting.

The point of this is that the grandfather's grandfather had carried this rifel?carbine? in Mexico when he was with Pershing. "So he was able to take his service weapon home?" I asked. the answer was "yes."

I'll let you all know more when I get a look at the piece. I told Dave that if it was a Carbine, the ancestor was probably with the 6th Cavalry. If it was a rifle, I'll have to dig a little. I did tell him that a krag that couldbe tied to an individual soldier had collector value even if it had been sporterized as this on apparently has been.

Lets see what I can put together. On the other list, Target-Panic was trying to track down a Krag he acquired from the grandson of a soldier who served in Cuba, the Phillipines and China. The question was whetehr this was his service weapon or a Krag he picked up just 'cause he liked them. If Dave's son' rifle is a soldier's weapon that he somehow acquired for his personal use, that kind of lends some weight to Target-Panic's thought that his weapon was that soldier's service weapon.

Soon as I get a look at the rifle I'll post some more.

jn
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2. 5Mad Farmers:

Might have changed later. This is 1899.

(picture of regulation relating to fine for losing your Krag)

Wouldn't surprise me if that changed after the '03s were adopted.

************************************************** **************
5MF,

I'm thinking that as the troops got the '03s, the 30,000-man Army may have realized they didn't really need 1/2 million obsolete rifles, and made it easy for soldiers to acquire their former service arms. If this was official policy, there's got to be paper on it somewhere. If t was unofficial, then we'll never know.

jn

************************************************** ***********
That would fit the pattern. After the CW they allowed it. After the SpanAm they allowed it on trapdoors. I know, as I shoot with a guy who took advantage of it, that after WW2 both '03s and '17s were sold to the soldiers.

So, no, it wouldn't surprise me in the least. In fact it'd surprise me if they didn't. Right after the SpanAm war - no. During the teens? Likely.

************************************************** **************
Well, then, there could be hundreds of Krag bring-backs in gunracks and attics, all of them with a reasonably good connection to an individual soldier, marine or cavalryman. The issue would be finding them.

jn

************************************************** **********

Thanks Jon,

I haven't visited this forum in quite some time. The grandson of our soldier who I bought the carbine from has decided to stay in Michigan this winter. He usually goes south to Texas. This should allow me to take the time to go over all of the photos, postcards, and other pieces of the collection with a fine tooth comb..........maybe I can uncover more clues.

I'll be off chasing Whitetails for a couple of weeks.........................

I'll check back soon!

target-P

Are you going to use the Krag? I just got back from a 10-day elk hunt in rough country. The Krag was all I carried.


jn

Hey...where is the rest of the story?????I know there is more to be found. Did anyone check the Michigan State archives? I have used State archives to get My Great-Grandfather's Civil War records. The States were great at archiving dispatches.......

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mohawk

Hey...where is the rest of the story?????I know there is more to be found. Did anyone check the Michigan State archives? I have used State archives to get My Great-Grandfather's Civil War records. The States were great at archiving dispatches.......

---

I searched some Mich. State sites, but not sure if I went about it the right way. Seems like I always hit a restricted area, or the search process was so complicated that I just gave up. Do you have a link to the site that you searched through?

Jon,
No.............I didn't hunt with the Krag. Actually I haven't even fired it yet. I just admire it once in a while and rub a little lite gun oil on it. I still need a screw for the sling ring bar if anyone has one.................Shoot me a PM if you know where I can get one.

I called up the State records office. It was through the State of Vermont. They kept very concise records of all the Units day to day logs that were kept by the Units clerks. Might want to check with the Historical Commision....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mohawk

I called up the State records office. It was through the State of Vermont. They kept very concise records of all the Units day to day logs that were kept by the Units clerks. Might want to check with the Historical Commision....

---

Thanks!

Happy Holidays.................... Nothing new to report on the old Krag. I just take it out and rub a bit of oil on it from time to time. I hope to resume my info search soon!

Target-Panic,

I ran into a guy locally who has a Krag he says his grandfather bought when they issued the '03s to his unit. 5MF and Dick Hosmer say that it was not uncommon for soldiers to buy their trapdoors whn their units changed over to the Krag and the practice sems to have been continued. I havenotsen this particular Krag but can't see why a family would make up the story.

have you asked fo an SRS check? People do that regularly on the "other" list. If you get a SRS hit, you can pin the weapon to the unit.

BTW this thread has over 8,000 hits! You should sell ad space.

Happy New Year

jn

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jon_norstog

Target-Panic,

I ran into a guy locally who has a Krag he says his grandfather bought when they issued the '03s to his unit. 5MF and Dick Hosmer say that it was not uncommon for soldiers to buy their trapdoors whn their units changed over to the Krag and the practice sems to have been continued. I havenotsen this particular Krag but can't see why a family would make up the story.

have you asked fo an SRS check? People do that regularly on the "other" list. If you get a SRS hit, you can pin the weapon to the unit.

BTW this thread has over 8,000 hits! You should sell ad space.

Happy New Year

jn

---

Hi Jon,
Yes..............I tried the SRS search with no luck! I'd like to dig further, but don't even know where to begin. I still love the carbine though. How'd the hunting go this Fall?

Take care.

Geo....

Geo,

Hunting this year was cold and wet, with very little game in evidence. So I got skunked for elk. But I am getting really good at using the bicycle to expand the area I hunt in a given day.

post-elk season I took the Krag up to N. Idaho for late fall whitetails. had a great shot,30 yards at a bunch of fat muley bucks mixed in with does ...and like a fool I had a white-tail tag. At noon break I met up with my brother who said, "man you shoulda shot one, you could put it on my tag." I said,"well that's a conversation we should have had before-hand." Seeing as how it involved a minor but hardly unheard-of violation of game laws.

My own thought is, you should just stick to the law as your Plan A. plan B can be something else, but don't make it up after the fact.

Let me try a few new tricks on your carbine.

I'm willing to put it 89% your soldier was in the 6th cavalry. And I'm willing to give it about that percent he acquired that carbine from his unit's armory, by purchase when the Krags were retired in favor of '03s. The question in my mind now is this: did he buy out his own weapon, or take the nicest one he could get from the armory?

If it was me it would be the latter. But it was him.

jn

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jon_norstog

Geo,

Hunting this year was cold and wet, with very little game in evidence. So I got skunked for elk. But I am getting really good at using the bicycle to expand the area I hunt in a given day.

post-elk season I took the Krag up to N. Idaho for late fall whitetails. had a great shot,30 yards at a bunch of fat muley bucks mixed in with does ...and like a fool I had a white-tail tag. At noon break I met up with my brother who said, "man you shoulda shot one, you could put it on my tag." I said,"well that's a conversation we should have had before-hand." Seeing as how it involved a minor but hardly unheard-of violation of game laws.

My own thought is, you should just stick to the law as your Plan A. plan B can be something else, but don't make it up after the fact.

Let me try a few new tricks on your carbine.

I'm willing to put it 89% your soldier was in the 6th cavalry. And I'm willing to give it about that percent he acquired that carbine from his unit's armory, by purchase when the Krags were retired in favor of '03s. The question in my mind now is this: did he buy out his own weapon, or take the nicest one he could get from the armory?

If it was me it would be the latter. But it was him.

jn

---

I've never hunted Elk..........yet! I've been buying pref. points in Colorado for quite a few years now. When my daughters finally get through college, I plan to take a nice trip out west and see if I can hang my tag on one. Dad & I had a great Whitetail season though. We have a nice little log cabin in the remote Western Upper Peninsula of Michigan. The area is made up of large tracts of paper company & timber company land with very little private property, and very few hunters. We got about 15 inches of snow the week before the opener, and the deer were on the move.......feeding, and heading toward their winter yarding areas. We both tagged nice 8 pointers and had an absolute blast! We also saw about a dozen moose this Fall about half of which were bulls. I love to watch them........they just don't get too excited about anything. This may be because there is not a moose season in Michigan, and they know that they are safe. We then headed up to Saskatchewan to hunt the week after Thanksgiving. Again we saw plenty of deer, and we each took 9 pointers. I hope to draw a limited black bear tag next Sept. for the unit that my cabin is in. If I do, I'll put quite a bit of time and effort into that hunt.

I look after the house of the guy that I bought the Krag from. He'll be back here in May. Once he settles in, I'm going to see if I can search through his grandfather's collection again. I'm sure that there are more clues hidden on the backs of the old photos and postcards. It will just take a bit of time to piece it all together. When I do, I'll try to scan in images of as much as I can. Maybe you or others here can help me make heads or tails out of this puzzle. I showed the carbine to a gun collector that I know............his jaw dropped when I pulled it out of the case. He's called me three times to ask if I'd sell it to him. Truth is.........if I did ever sell it.........it wouldn't be to this guy. I also ran into an old guy who owns a Winchester '95 carbine.............I might just make him an offer. I think it would look great hanging next to the Krag.

I'll keep checking in from time to time.

Take care.....

Geo.......

I have a Win. 95 in 30-40. I don't hunt often with it for several reasons, one is I always wonder "what if" I break a part? hard to get to say the least. Another is it's getting pretty hard for me to see that very fine front sight and shoot well enough with it. I have taken a whitetail buck with that rifle and it tipped him over just fine. Maybe if I make a new wider front sight insert for it I could see it better. Anyway never sell the 30 Army short.

FTIII

the stock has been inlet-ed for the sling bar so I doubt it's a chopped rifle stock. Bolt is an easy fix. The front and rear sight should be marked with a small c if they are correct carbine sights.

Geo,

For elk, idaho and Montana treat out-of-staters pretty good. Just bring money. If you want to hunt ID and don't mind roughing it, you could throw in with me and my brothers in the "Panhandle Zone." It's just the place for hunting with a 30-40. 60 yards would be a long shot. We hunt old-school, on foot, out of a tent camp.

If you can score the '95, by all means do it. It's a good rifle, just a little heavy on the cARRY.
later!

jn

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jon_norstog

Geo,

For elk, idaho and Montana treat out-of-staters pretty good. Just bring money. If you want to hunt ID and don't mind roughing it, you could throw in with me and my brothers in the "Panhandle Zone." It's just the place for hunting with a 30-40. 60 yards would be a long shot. We hunt old-school, on foot, out of a tent camp.

If you can score the '95, by all means do it. It's a good rifle, just a little heavy on the cARRY.
later!

jn

---

Thanks for the invite Jon....................might consider it sometime. I don't mind roughing it........I prefer it. Keep checking back this Spring. When I have more info on the carbine I'll post it here, and I'll get in touch with you too. Thanks for your help on this.

Geo......

---------- Post added at 10:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 PM ----------

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by samnev

the stock has been inlet-ed for the sling bar so I doubt it's a chopped rifle stock. Bolt is an easy fix. The front and rear sight should be marked with a small c if they are correct carbine sights.

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Better pictures in post #5.

target-panic,

Here is a diary of a soldier in the 34th Michigan, which I think is the unit our soldier served in

http://www.spanamwar.com/34michcripps.htm

This is a unit report, pretty much the usual military report BS ...

http://www.spanamwar.com/34michrpt.htm

And here are some other individual writings. Sgt. Cogshall couldn't stand to see a woman and child starve ....http://www.spanamwar.com/34mich.htm

Hope that helps in understanding what "our soldier" went through in his introduction to the soldiering life.

jn