Krag Carbine Help..........(Pics)

[jon_norstog]

Targwet Panic, list:

part of the story is in the medals. It's tough to say, one of those medals **could** be the Philippine campaign medal, probably not ( the round one with the red and blue ribbon) you'd have to look at the gong to be sure. The one that looks like it is 2-tone green could be a really dirty Spanish War medal. What is missing is the Cuban Campaign medal, which our man would have had if he was with the 34th in Cuba. That medal was recalled in 1913 because Spain objected to the US awarding a medal with Spanish colors (gold and red). Troops were reissued new medals with a blue and yellow ribbon.

Our mystery soldier could have turned in his old medal, then never got issued a new one. Or there may be a separate stash of the "really important" medals.

Another missing medal is the Michigan State Commemorative Medal a big brass gong, don't know if it had a ribbon or if so what color it was.

Our man was a busy vet. The medals with the bronze cross, and eagle separated by a US flag ribbon were the United Spanish War Veterans medals. I don't know why he has so many of them, maybe they handed them out to lodge officers or at national conventions?

What I don't see, besides the SAW medals that should be there, are the China Campaign medal (wide yellow, thin blue stripe on each side of ribbon; dragons, etc on the gong) and a for-sure Philippine Campaign medal.

5MF, I bet you have something to say about that!

jn

[target-panic]

Targwet Panic, list:

part of the story is in the medals. It's tough to say, one of those medals **could** be the Philippine campaign medal, probably not ( the round one with the red and blue ribbon) you'd have to look at the gong to be sure. The one that looks like it is 2-tone green could be a really dirty Spanish War medal. What is missing is the Cuban Campaign medal, which our man would have had if he was with the 34th in Cuba. That medal was recalled in 1913 because Spain objected to the US awarding a medal with Spanish colors (gold and red). Troops were reissued new medals with a blue and yellow ribbon.

Our mystery soldier could have turned in his old medal, then never got issued a new one. Or there may be a separate stash of the "really important" medals.

Another missing medal is the Michigan State Commemorative Medal a big brass gong, don't know if it had a ribbon or if so what color it was.

Our man was a busy vet. The medals with the bronze cross, and eagle separated by a US flag ribbon were the United Spanish War Veterans medals. I don't know why he has so many of them, maybe they handed them out to lodge officers or at national conventions?

What I don't see, besides the SAW medals that should be there, are the China Campaign medal (wide yellow, thin blue stripe on each side of ribbon; dragons, etc on the gong) and a for-sure Philippine Campaign medal.

5MF, I bet you have something to say about that!

jn

I'll try and get close-up photos of the medals this weekend. There are some that are missing though. In one of his photos he is in full uniform, and is wearing a couple of Medals that his grandson does not have. One is shaped like a cross that is flared out at the ends.......it hangs from a bar of some type. The one Medal that you spoke of was very tarnished and hard to make out, but it looked like it had 3 soldiers standing on the front, and 3 soldiers sitting on the reverse side.......It looked like copper and not brass. There was a sharp shooter badge also. There was a couple of formal pictures of him in a Cavalry uniform, and a picture of his horse with a hand written note on the back......telling of his horse & the stables in the Philippines. There are many missing pieces of this puzzle.........but after 100 plus years we've got a pretty good start! Stay Tuned.........

[5MadFarmers]

It's tough to say, one of those medals **could** be the Philippine campaign medal, probably not ( the round one with the red and blue ribbon) you'd have to look at the gong to be sure.

I'd say unlikely.

The one that looks like it is 2-tone green could be a really dirty Spanish War medal.

No. If we're looking at the same image, the one in the picture is green and black. The SpanAm is green and yellar.

"What is missing is the Cuban Campaign medal, which our man would have had if he was with the 34th in Cuba."

There are a number missing. Well, I'd say they're all missing. What I believe we're looking at there are actually encampment medals. So perhaps 1932, 1933, 1934, 1935, etc. The GAR started doing that and the SpanAm guys just kind of fell into it. I strongly suspect every one of those in the picture are encampment medals.

"I don't know why he has so many of them, maybe they handed them out to lodge officers or at national conventions?

See? You had it all along.

"One is shaped like a cross that is flared out at the ends.......it hangs from a bar of some type."

Really? SpanAm War was in 1898. The thing is that impetuous young men who ran down and enlisted to free the poor Cubans were young enough, if they enlisted in the regulars (as this guy did) to have served in WW1. Which seems likely given what you described sounds amazingly like the Croix de Guerre.

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Attachment 6420

[jon_norstog]

Target, 5MF:

What happens to old medals? Unless they get stashed away, kids get them and wear them in school plays, or at halloween, or just around. We sure did that when we were kids, and lost a few, too.

I got the usual run of giedunk medals when I served, 1966-70. I have one medal that means something, that I keep pretty secure, although I've lost the ribbon bar. When I'm gone it will probably get tossed out.

If the man's dress uniform is around (kids get into those too!) it may have the full load of ribbons.

Just a thought.

jn

[5MadFarmers]

So true John.

[Griff Murphey]

Someone's going to be in big trouble if the LADY OF THE HOUSE sees that nasty GUN on her pretty PINK BEDSPREAD!

[target-panic]

OK.......... I went over to the grandson's house tody. I asked if I could take close-up pictures of all of the medals (that he still has) as well as service photos of our soldier. Hopefully some of you know what you are looking at and can help me find a few clues to the history of this old carbine. The link is attached below.......... If anything jumps out at anyone, please let me know! I believe you can click on the pics to enlarge.

Thanks!

Picasa Web Albums - George - Medals.......Etc

[jon_norstog]

Target-P!

tHE HEART OF NATURE'S playground! Now, THAT'S a medal! Seriously, though I think I see the ribbon bar for the China campaign, also for the Cuban campaign, the Spanish Campaign Medal. the China ribbon is at the bottom of your last photo. I also see the Army of occupation medal. Most of what you see is what we used to call "giedunk medals" 'cause they were cheap and everyone got them.

In the last picture you can see the "rainbow medal" ribbon. It was an international decoration issued by the allies after the Great War. 14 of the 16 allied countries issued it in one version or another. I think it just means our soldier served during WW 1. He was getting on in years by then and may have been a reserve or something. Some of my great uncles had that decoration, "among others." Our family decided to try the USMC in that war, so I've seen that ribbon. Well, live (if you're lucky) and learn. Or, why I chose the Coast Guard.

The victory medal was issued to any soldier or sailor who served between aPRIL 6, 1917 AND nOVEMBER 11 1918 in Europe or between November 12, 1918 and Aug 5, 1919 in European Russia (like the Murmansk expedition, where US soldiers carried Mosin-Nagants)or Nov. 23 1918 to April 1 1920 in Siberia. Two and a half million of these medals were issued.

back to our soldier. The US drew down troops from the Philippines for the China Campaign, an early example of the rationale behind overseas empire. A few thousand of the 140,00 or so US troops in the Philippines went to China. There was some pretty tough fighting in front of Tientsin, he may have written home about it if he was there. But as usual, it was USMC 9and a bunch of sailors!) that did the heavy lifting at Tientsin. At this point I would say the things to look for are letters home or a diary. I hope the family appreciates the work you are doing.

5MF,our man would have been pushing 40 when the call went out for the Great War. Did he serve? The ribbon says yes. Gould have been home front.

jn

[jon_norstog]

Target Panic,

Forgot to mention, the Philippine Campaign ribbon is there, and here's an interesting one: the Mexican Service Medal. Our soldier had to have served in:
Veracruz Expedition: April 24 to November 26, 1914
The Punitive expedition, March 14, 1916 to February 7, 1917
Buena Vista, Mexico: December 1, 1917
San Bernardino Canyon, Mexico: December 26, 1917
La Grulla, Texas: January 8 – January 9, 1918
Pilares, Chihuahua: March 28, 1918
Nogales, Arizona: November 1 - 26, 1915, or August 27, 1918
El Paso, Texas and Ciudad Juárez, Chihuahua: June 15 – June 16, 1919

Maybe this is where he served as a cavalryman? I think some of the Mexican Expedition troops may still have been carrying Krags. 5MF?

There are 2 other ribbons in the last photo I don't recognize: the two on the left either side of the Mexican Service ribbon.

I think we can conclude that our soldier was a real brownboot, a professional who served around the world back before the Great War turned the soldierly profession into a ghastly dance of death. He got lucky, did all that service without picking up a purple heart.

We've got him in Cuba, 1898, mustered out. He's back in the service, probably the Army by 1900, and in the Philippines when the China Relief Expedition is put together. He carried a Krag all the way to Peking, probably. He was probably in the 9th or the 14th Infantry regiments. If he was in the 9th he may have participated in the battle for Tientsin.

He must have changed units by 1916. None of the China Relief units were sent into Mexico (although he may have been at Nogales or some other place). He would have served under Pershing and Patton. (Patton was assigned to Pershing's staff) He may still have been carrying a Krag carbine.

And finally we have him probably in a home front unit during the Great War.

Well, that's all I've got for now. Good luck following up on the story. I'll bet there is stuff from China and Mexico lying around the family's house, maybe they've forgotten it was "granpa" who brought it back.
jn

[target-panic]

Thanks Jon,

For helping me piece all of this together.......You seem to really know your stuff!!! If anyone else has anything to add.......Please do.......

His grandson said he was a "Man's man".......I guess he knew his way around a bottle of whiskey, and never backed down from a bar fight.

The family has the paperwork to send to the VA to get information on his service record. Is there a way for them to inquire about which medals were actually awarded to him? They'd like to put together a display / shadow box with everything in it (my idea )???? It looks like at least a couple of campaign medals are missing from the collection, as well as the one that looks like a flared out cross in the standing uniform photo (not sure what that one is?).