Krag Carbine Help..........(Pics)

[jon_norstog]

Target-panic,

I would say the service records are the place to start. There was a fire and they lost a lot of them, unfortunately. The reocrds should show what medals he had or was entitled to. Replacements are available for some of them, or else there's eBay. Some medals are engraved around the dge with the recipients name or service number ...

I think you could put together a pretty decent itinerary or CV if you know which units he was with. You know the units, you can find pictures of the actions they were in. If the family has letters or a diary, those can be used to complete the picture.

good luck!

jn

ps: I'm Ok with researching but I'm just a hacker .. 5MF, Dick Hosmer, cii, now **those** guys really know their stuff.

[jon_norstog]

Target-panic,

I would say the service records are the place to start. .....
I think you could put together a pretty decent itinerary or CV if you know which units he was with. You know the units, you can find ......

The next step, as I see it is to see what the connection is between the weapon and the soldier. You've got the serial number, with any luck you'll get the units our soldier served with. A couple possibilities: he carried that weapon, maybe in Mexico, maybe earlier, and managed to keep it when the Springfields were issued. Second possibility, he got attached to the service arm that he carried most of his career and picked one up from Bannermans or some other source.

There are people on this list who can tell you what units your carbine (if that's what it really is) was issued to. If they match up, then you most probably will be able to document your Krag and tie it to the soldier/cavalryman who carried it. That's gotta be worht something.

good luck. get those units.

jn

[jon_norstog]

Target-Panic;

I have not been able to identify two of those ribbons. Our soldier might have seen some combat, might have been wounded, even. The purple heart wasn't reauthorized until 1932. It was granted retroactively to soldiers if their CO put them in for it, but our man was long gone from the service.

His service records were probably destroyed in the 1973 fire at the National Archives Record Center in Missouri. So i'm thinking your best bet is going to be letters, diaries, scraPBOOKS, and such that may still be kicking around his grandchildren's home.

If they are up for it, it could be a fun project for you and give something back to the family as well.

Good luck!

jn

[5MadFarmers]

Target-P!

5MF,our man would have been pushing 40 when the call went out for the Great War. Did he serve? The ribbon says yes. Gould have been home front.

Jon, your observations there are astute.

I'm aware of a number of recently retired soldiers whom were recalled for duty in WW1. I guess a few "not so recently" retired ones also. The same thing happened in WW2. I have two discharges for my grandfather - one from his army service in France during the great war, the second from the Coast Guard from the big one. I don't think he was much of a volunteer in either. Maybe the second? I know he was drafted the first time and didn't enjoy himself. The Coast Guard service was "shore duty" in his home-town guarding a shipyard. Every WW1 vet they could get to do those duties freed up a younger man to be sent elsewhere. Long service NCOs, recently retired, would (I'd think) be in demand. The peacetime army of pre-1917 was very small and the expansion of 1917 was tremendous. Experienced men would be a commodity one would be after.

I have a book on medals and ribbons but I'd have to dig for it. I have no idea if it covers that era - I haven't really looked at it. I didn't buy it, it was a gift; not an area that I'm particularly interested in. It'd likely be easier to contact somebody that specializes in that field for those two ribbons. Your knowledge of the ribbons exceeds mine.

During the Vietnam war the Vietnamese government awarded ribbons - one is white and green and another has a tree branch on it (just remembering them from when I was in service). I'm aware of Korean awarded medals, to US troops, from their war also. I guess it could be possible for those to be awarded by another country; I don't know, haven't studied those.

That the gentleman in question was in the cavalry is a given - I already gave OP the units some time ago. While that wasn't very long ago I didn't store that information in my head but think it was service in both the 1st and 6th Cavalry - after his duty with the Michigan unit.

I haven't been responding as I really haven't had anything to add. I did the basic research on his units, that didn't take a lot of effort, but didn't really care to dig too deeply. I have other stuff taking up my research time right now so detailed digs are not really possible at this time.

Besides, you've been covering it nicely.

Cheers.

[jon_norstog]

5MF,

Did you get those units from the rifle serial number? Just curious. My thought is our soldier may have gone to the Philippines as an infantry man, probably the 9th or 14th Regiments. They were the first ones sent in from the Philippines for the China Relief Expedition.

The 6th was brought over from the States and missed the fighting at Taku Forts and Tientsin, but was there for the assault on the walls of Peking. It was only after the China Campaign that the 6th went to the Philippines. There were several CMOH awards to members of that unit.



1st Cav was in the Philippines in 1901-2, but not China and mexico
7th Cav was in the Philippines 1904-7 and 1911-15, then in Mexico, but not in China
6th Cav. was in Cuba, the Philippines, China and mexico. They also served in Yellowstone park, preventing buffalo poaching. They were sent off to France but didn't make it in time for the main event.

Our man could have spent his entire time in service with the 6th and gotten the ribbons you see. That might be logical, since the 6th was in Cuba as well - he could have made some contacts and gotten in on the word of a friend.

Thanks for keeping this in mind!

jn

[5MadFarmers]

5MF,

Did you get those units from the rifle serial number?

No. I don't have the serial number. Let's leave that one there please? External considerations. Thanks in advance.

Just curious. My thought is our soldier may have gone to the Philippines as an infantry man, probably the 9th or 14th Regiments. They were the first ones sent in from the Philippines for the China Relief Expedition.

The 6th was brought over from the States and missed the fighting at Taku Forts and Tientsin, but was there for the assault on the walls of Peking. It was only after the China Campaign that the 6th went to the Philippines. There were several CMOH awards to members of that unit.

1st Cav was in the Philippines in 1901-2, but not China and mexico
7th Cav was in the Philippines 1904-7 and 1911-15, then in Mexico, but not in China
6th Cav. was in Cuba, the Philippines, China and mexico. They also served in Yellowstone park, preventing buffalo poaching. They were sent off to France but didn't make it in time for the main event.

Our man could have spent his entire time in service with the 6th and gotten the ribbons you see. That might be logical, since the 6th was in Cuba as well - he could have made some contacts and gotten in on the word of a friend.

Perhaps covering that a an abstract level is best. The number of people coming into a collection along those lines is pretty small. Family or not, it's a fascinating glimpse into the time. I end up with "family" collections on with a frequency that I find disturbing. Not my "family," but other people's family. Descendants, not interested, simply sell it off as worthless old stuff. I'm preaching to the choir here though.

The set is unique and complete enough where it really should be researched. The original poster doesn't have the access to the documents, nor perhaps the experience (I'm assuming on both based on this thread), to conduct the basics of that research. You've shown the interest and you've displayed the access to some of the sources that would be needed to begin the search. What really needs to happen, given the original poster's understood reluctance to provide a name, is perhaps for you and him to get into contact so you'll have the information necessary to begin the search.

Original poster: I'm not sure you understand the potential value of that research. A trooper with cavalry service, during the time in question, is kind of rare. The additional items simply make it more so. Adding in the carbine and the unit history, this is, in my opinion, a collection that really needs to be researched. My suggestions (take them for what they're worth):

1) Work with Jon to get the unit assignments straight. A timeline needs to be developed and all the source items fully investigated.
2) Pay Springfield Research Service the fee to see if there is a record of that Krag. It would be well worth it as they potentially might have a record for that gun. If the record also results in that trooper's name, you've achieved Krag nirvana. Not all records exists, its a minority of the guns made, but it's more than worth it for that gun.
3) If the results of #1 and #2 above seem to show promise, it might then be worthwhile to get a survey of other possible records.

I'm currently pretty buried in some research. My ability to dig into that research, without breaks, is something I have to watch as much of it is very dry. So I come up for air - more to prevent sloppy mistakes than anything. Anyway, I don't have a lot of research time free right now. That said, this is obviously a very interesting find. If you run into something as a result of #1 or #2, I'm available for advise - assuming I can offer any. SRS's records are, and this is the understatement of the century, more complete than mine at the current time. I don't see a change to that for some time if ever. I'm hitting different records really. I do have access to a lot of "fee based" information services.

Regardless. The two of you should get together and see where #1 and #2 go. I can provide some help after you've done that. I have access to service records, etc. Not all but sometimes it's surprising.

The collection is very interesting. There are some really interesting possible paths it may take and they should be pursued. If that was my collection, and it's not and no this isn't any type of request for anything, I'd follow it. Even if it required some paid professional research. No, I am not a paid professional researcher - what I'll do is free. I'm interested in where it ends up.

Thanks for keeping this in mind!

jn

You're the one doing the work thus far. It's made for an interesting read. Thank you for taking the time.

A last note: it's going to be hard on the rest of the board, those that have been following this, for it to go off-line. Please let us know what you turn up.

Cheers.

Cheers and good luck.

[jon_norstog]

5MF, Target-panic,

At this time it probably depends on the family. Do they want to pursue the matter? History sometimes reveals what we would prefer to conceal.

The other possibility is to bring in a local historical society and/or university history department. The story just keeps getting better, and it would probaby make a pretty decent master's thesis.

I agree that what you have may be pretty rare. Our soldier sounds like the kind of guy who could have figured out a way to keep his service arm if he wanted to. Did he?

There's some other interesting things in his history. He was really involved in the Span-Am war vets. The OP did already contact me OL with a picture of the headstone. He was buried under a 34th Michigan stone, not one of those white marble RA jobs like you see at Arlington. His choice? A matter of convenience for the family?

Anyway, I plan on helping out to the extent I can, all I am asked to do.

jn

[target-panic]

Thanks Jon & 5MF,

Sorry for my absence........been involved in some family stuff for a couple of weeks......followed by a vacation.

I am absolutely a greenhorn when it comes to the subject of research. I don't even know where to start. I did contact the Springfield Research Service shortly after I purchased the carbine. I've exchanged several emails, and have been told that it could take several months to find anything conclusive. I'm more than willing to pay a fair price for this information, and yes, I do realize the value as it relates to this carbine.

I talk to the Grandson every couple of days on a social basis, and I'm sure that he'd be willing to help in any way that he could. He has the request forms for his grandfather's service records, but I don't know if he's completed them yet. I backed off on the subject a bit because I was starting to feel like a bit of a pest. He has shown me everything that he has.....I think.
I think some of the medals are missing, because there are some in the photos, that are not in his possession. He also has a "Dress Sword" that I may or may not have mentioned, but he stated that he wants it to go to his son. I don't think I submitted a picture of the "Naval Brigade Certificate" I believe this was dated 1912? I feel like I've sort of hit a dead end. I'm sure there is more information out there, but I just don't know where to start.

Remember, before I stumbled across this carbine in the back of his closet, I wasn't the least bit interested in this subject. However, I've collected sporting arms for a number of years. I knew as soon as I laid eyes on this carbine, it was something special. (1) Because I had never seen one like it before. (2) I knew by looking at the amount of bluing on it, that for it's age it was in great condition. This is when I turned to the world wide web and discovered and joined this forum.

Thanks for everything that you've done to help so far.......I'll keep digging to see what else that I can find.

[jon_norstog]

target-p,

The next thing to do is wait, I guess. See what SRS says about the rifle. The Naval Brigade certificate makes me think the man might have been out of the service for a while and joined a kind of CG Auxiliary or Sea Scouts type quasi-military association. He may have been conscripted during the great callup of 1917-18. The service records will tell, providing they weren't destroyed in the fire.

The second thing to look for is reports filed by the units he is likely to have served in. Iwoould look into any reports I could find that involved the 6th Cavalry. Our man would have probably been an NCO (unless he got busted down) and thus his name more likely to show up in reports. He has a fairly distinctive name, that helps.

The "dress sword' could be a U.S. Cavalry issue sabre. Post a photo, there are people on the list who can identify it. Or it could be from the Knights of Columbus!


There is definitely a story here.

good luck, and keep at it.

jn

[target-panic]

Well............I may have some more information on our soldier shortly. I talked with his grandson today, and told him that I was trying to establish a connection between the carbine and his grandfather, and that I had also contacted the SRS. He thought that it was a great Idea, and then stated that he had a couple more items that he would look for. He said that he thought that he had some handwritten notes about his grandfather's service written by his father....(the soldiers son). He said that he thought that it was tucked away in a safety deposit box at the bank. Maybe there will be some information in these papers that will help in my search. I also found a couple of more pictures that I had taken of the whole collection of item that included the sword and a few other items. If anyone sees anything conclusive in here please shoot me a PM or post a comment.......Thanks!

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