Bullet Casting Woes

After a very productive weekend session casting bullets for the 32-20s, yesterday's attempt was quite the opposite! Spent two + hours and only produced five marginally good 454429 bullets. Apparently the ingots used to replenish the pot were contaminated as the surface tension went sky high. Couldn't get a good fill with any of the three moulds tried. Fluxed the pot multiple times, ran the heat up well past the usual, made sure the moulds were heated well and degreased, all to no avail. Even added some known good linotype which seems to be a waste at this point.

But the worst part was after accidentally dumping the new .43 Spanish mould assembly into the melt. First time for that! More or less encased the mould and the outer portion of the handles in lead. Bother! Finally pried the mess off, only to discover that the lead had grabbed the tip of the handle well enough to break the cast iron off at the screw hole.

And it's the only large set of Lyman handles I own for some odd reason! (Three small handle sets about, which don't seem very feasible to convert, so no help there.) And none in stock for any of the usual suppliers.

Anybody ever attempt repair on a set of Lyman handles before?

All of this recent bullet casting activity has actually been due to the anticipation of getting the .43 Spanish caliber rifles up and running, but it's been one delay after another...:bitch:

Now to purge the pot and hunt up a more reliable source of lead...Never have considered paying other than scrap prices, if anything, for the stuff, but it's another commodity in short supply it seems due to the ongoing feeding frenzy in the US.

Gratutitous photo from an earlier, happier session:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...19bbe356-1.jpg

Based on my own experience:

1) The best source of pure-enough lead is lead flashing as used by roofers. It has to be pretty pure to be sufficiently malleable.
2) You do not need 99.99% chemically pure lead, that is just wasting money.
3) But you should avoid wheel weights and any other supposedly favourable source of scrap recommended by someone at the bar who knows about as much about metallurgy as I do about Sanskrit. As you have found out, the hard way, it only takes tiny amounts of some impurities to ruin the alloy.
4) Repeat: stick to lead flashing.
5) So-called "fluxing" can only have an effect (if any) on the top of the melt, where it may indeed reduce oxidation. But anyone who thinks that all the various snake-oils that are proposed as flux actually penetrate into the melt and mix with the alloy should think again. If a steel mould floats on molten lead, be sure that beeswax, earwax, whatever... cannot do anything else but also float on top.
6) For BP applications, hardening with tin is all you need. And the simplest way of acquiring tin is in the form of good-old eutectic solder as used for electronics work. 5% tin provides a BH of about 10. It's not critical, so I avoid brain strain and add 8% solder by weight (which I can calculate in my head) to the lead, for BPCRs, or 5% solder (approx. 3% tin, or BH 8) for percussion rifles, such as the Gibbs. Pure lead is, by definition, BH 5.

And finally, from the "been there, done that" department:
I, too, have managed to break a (Lyman?) mould handle, about a year ago. And under sheer desperate time pressure, silver-soldered the pieces together.
The material seems to be a kind of brittle steel, but not pure cast iron (thank heavens).
Attachment 42444
Not pretty, but it is still working after a year. Try it - you have nothing to lose!

I use wheel weights all the time. Having said that I also have a way to avoid zinc contamination. USE A THERMOMETER! Keep the heat below the temp needed to melt zinc. It will float at the top and you can pick it off easily, Yes, it does slow down the smelting process quite a bit, but it avoids the problem you appear to be having. And no, I do not know any practical method of removing the zinc once it gets into the mix.

Fortunately, it doesn't seem to be a zinc problem. The batch was melted again today and was found to solidify at 580°F over a narrow temperature band. Drained a fair amount off, gave it a heavy fluxing with sawdust stirred in well after charring and added a little more linotype to get the "freeze point " down to 550°F. Moulds degreased again for good measure and managed to cast some good 32-20 projectiles, which is the current known "good" baseline. Had to run the pot at about 720°F for good fill, but that's acceptable, if a little warmish.

The mould handle breakage is now the major drama. There's very little "meat" at the screw hole, and the temps will get fairly high, so silver soldering might not do so well. May have to scab on a reinforcing plate on the outboard side of the jaw. Complete jaw replacement would be another possibility, but isn't looking like a wonderful project. Will probably be the weekend before any progress is made.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmoore

There's very little "meat" at the screw hole, and the temps will get fairly high, so silver soldering might not do so well. May have to scab on a reinforcing plate on the outboard side of the jaw.

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Do it. The steel is annoyingly brittle, so the silver-soldering will make it less so. In fact, annealing the lot might be a good idea.

My problem is getting each casting to a similar weight. Can hardly hope for precision with quite large differences in bullet weight. I have to reject about 40% of castings just to achieve a limit of about 2 grains variation in weight.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Do it. The steel is annoyingly brittle, so the silver-soldering will make it less so

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This pair appears to be cast iron. Won't be reattaching the old jaw piece, now: machined the jaw square on the outer face and fractured end during lunch break. Now to round up some 5/6" thick stock. (Not likely here, it's all wierd nickel alloys, titanium, aluminum, etc.) Probably some at home, though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by villiers

My problem is getting each casting to a similar weight. Can hardly hope for precision with quite large differences in bullet weight. I have to reject about 40% of castings just to achieve a limit of about 2 grains variation in weight.

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I've had very good success up until a couple of days ago keeping weights very uniform. Couldn't tell you why, though! Usually, light bullets mean air pockets inside if the outside look good. Used to reject lots of bullets for that problem as accuracy is terrible when the offbalanced ones sneak by. Have long since started weighing all of them! Store bought bullets for speed. Home brewed for accuracy. ETA: And desparation! Not too many "store bought" bullets out there for Werders.

My best friend is the go to guy for bullet casting issues. That is all he does. He is moderator on the cast boolit (correct spelling for site) forums if you are familiar with that forum site. He can answer and help. His name is Ben Hays. Try him for advice. bena.hays@gmail.com
Jason

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Originally Posted by JasonA

He is moderator on the cast boolit (correct spelling for site) forums if you are familiar with that forum site.

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Have lurked on that site quite a bit lately. Also have been perusing the old Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and other old books that have served well in the past. Never have really enjoyed casting bullets (or boolits), but sometimes it's proven to be the best solution to getting the most out of a particular firearm.

Some progress.

From this:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...32406025-1.jpg

To this:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._zps7dd7-1.jpg



https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._zps211d-1.jpg


Not quite done, yet, but it's one hole away from the test phase.

Oil hardening tool steel. Hoping that the opposed screws will be sufficient, as the cast iron is now well laden with cutting lube. Takes forever to get it chemically clean for silver soldering or brazing and the pivot isn't made to disassemble.

Just two further queries .... I cast bullets from a Hensold mould made to a Serrosafe casting of the barrel, chamber and muzzle end. If I used a sizer, would it change the calibre so that it no longer suited my specific barrel? And secondly, if I load the original amount of BP, there´s no space left for lube under the bullet. Even using a bit less powder, the bullet compresses the powder ... or ... the round comes out too long and the breechblock won´t close on the base of the cartridge. Should I use a compression die to get all the powder into the cartridge?

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Originally Posted by villiers

I cast bullets from a Hensold mould made to a Serrosafe casting of the barrel, chamber and muzzle end.

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If you sent him a Cerrosafe casting, Hensold will have made the mould so that the cast bullet is correct without sizing. Ask him if you are not sure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by villiers

If I used a sizer, would it change the calibre so that it no longer suited my specific barrel?

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If you size down any more than a thou or so (i.e. just enough to smooth the surface) then the bullet will be a trifle undersized. But soft-lead bullets can bump up several thou to fit a bore, so the diameter is not nearly as critical as for jacketed bullets. You should be using something like max. 5% tin in a tin-lead alloy. Anything higher is an expensive waste of tin, anything with type metal is instantly too hard, and anything with wheelweights is unpredictable scrap. Lead flashing (i.e. roofing lead) with 8% eutectic (electronics) solder added is a simple answer that provides consistent performance. Your bullets should (almost) all cast out at about plus/minus 2gn of the average value. Anything outside that range should go back into the pot as having voids, lumps of slag etc. Then classify the bullets into two classes, each with a spread of 2gn. For a long-range competition you can select classes with a spread of 1gn, but I doubt that you will see any significant difference at 100 meters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by villiers

Should I use a compression die to get all the powder into the cartridge?

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No, compression seems to make the vivacity inconsistent. Just adapt the amount of BP to what you can get in as a charge when the powder is well shaken down. You must have the lubricant, with an amount as I explained in a previous post. The original "service" charge is effectively a theoretical maximum.

Ok ... thanx Patrick. The old BP must have had a considerably greater volume per unit of weight than Swiss No. 2. I was thinking of maybe using a sizer (just `cos the bullets look nicer) and then paper patching the bullets. In warm weather, the lube under the bullet really does contaminate the top layer of BP, even though I use a very thin cork patch that fits tightly between the bullet and the lube, AND between the lube and the powder. I now seat the bullets shortly before going to the range. The spread of bullet weights definitely is a b*gger.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by villiers

I now seat the bullets shortly before going to the range.

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So do I. For the very same reason. A greasy lubricant will always penetrate the wad, eventually. Pure wax would probably last a very long time, but greases have lighter fractions that soak through the wad material - quite fast in warm weather, as you have discovered.

But what bothers me more is the variation in bullet weight you are observing. What is the variation?

The first few casts in a session will usually show sub-optimal filling of the mould, and be underweight. The very last casts, really getting down to the bottom of the pot, will also be dubious, maybe embedding some crud off the bottom of the pot. And any flashing on the cast indicates that the mould was not quite closed, and the bullet is likely to be noticeably overweight. But the main flow should be within the sort of range I quoted. However, you must keep on casting at a steady rate, not stopping for tea and then restarting, so that the mould keeps a constant temperature. If your arms are aching and you need a break, park the mould over the melt - as close the to melt as you can get it, without dunking it. This helps to maintain a good working temperature.

Try to pour at a constant rate, and have a similar quantity of lead as the blob on top of the cut-off plate each time , so that the final fill as the lead in the mould shrinks and draws in material from the reservoir of the blob is also fairly constant. In short, every part of the operation should be as consistent as possible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Try to pour at a constant rate, and have a similar quantity of lead as the blob on top of the cut-off plate each time , so that the final fill as the lead in the mould shrinks and draws in material from the reservoir of the blob is also fairly constant.

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I think that continuing to pour well after it overflows may be one big reason the weight variation has been so small for my casts lately. Used to strive for a nice neat blob on top, but now just keep the faucet on for a while whilst moving the mould about a tiny bit. Couldn't believe the last good production session where most bullets were within one tenth grain! Had to recheck the scales more than once... But after going back to one of the old Lyman manuals, it was noticed that there's at least one large photo within that showed a similar technique: Lots of overflow. Perhaps the continued flow keeps the bullet metal agitated and allows air to escape before the small sprue hole solidifies. The overflow is collected in a tiny cast iron skillet in my case. (See photo in Post #1.) Guessing that the amount is about equal to the weight of the bullet or a bit more. It's annoying to drain the pot faster than normal, but the results seem to be encouraging.

Here's an odd question: Do you think having little to no play on one side of the mould/handle assembly would lead to dramas? Have drilled the cross hole after thinning the plate from 0.312" to 0.307" (in order to keep the mould from being a press fit onto the jaw), but did the job with the handle shut tightly. So one side has pretty much no wiggle.

The assembly opens and closes well enough. But will the lack of wiggle make dislodging bullets more difficult? Trying to keep things as stable as possible, as the repaired jaw must be on the sprue plate attachment side as the added width makes having the repair on the non-impact absorbing "clean half" impractical.

This whole casting business is turning into rocket science. I´ve not tried it on a full moon etc. but re-melting the duds is no great bother. Can now get most rounds into the standard 10 inch German paper target at 300 metres and even (sometimes) some quite good groups. Think that might be coming up to my limitations, though the Werder could well be better.

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Originally Posted by villiers

Can now get most rounds into the standard 10 inch German paper target at 300 metres and even (sometimes) some quite good groups. Think that might be coming up to my limitations, though the Werder could well be better.

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At this point, could it be the Werder's sights that's the major limitation? 3+ MOA at longish carbine distance seems pretty good.

When throwing the duds back in the pot, I wait until I'm done casting, because they will cool the pot too much while you're casting. I cast mostly .58 minies and really makes a difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmoore

At this point, could it be the Werder's sights that's the major limitation? 3+ MOA at longish carbine distance seems pretty good.

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I expect, at this point, it might well be ... ME. I´m looking around for someone who´s a bit better, but the others at the range stay at max. 100 metres with arm long telescopic lenses so they´re not much help. The Werder (and me) are not all that much worse than me with the LE No. 5.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by villiers

Can now get most rounds into the standard 10 inch German paper target at 300 metres and even (sometimes) some quite good groups. Think that might be coming up to my limitations, though the Werder could well be better.

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Patrick, I don't see (yet!) that you have any problem with the Werder. In fact, if you can get the shots inside 10" at 300 meters, that is very, very good with open sights and the short sight radius. The standard ISSF 300 meter target, as used by the BDMP and others, has a 10cm "10" with the rings at 5cm intervals, so all shots within 10" would translate as all shots well within the "8" ring. Just what is the problem - that shooting seems good to me!

Managed to cast bullets with the new .43 Spanish bullet mould today. 42 bullets, of which 40 were within 1 grain of 369.0 grains as cast. Never had a mould release bullets so easily!

Another first: Managed to get burned in a 1/2" round spot (2nd degree) just above the collarbone. Not quite sure what happened, except when the flux lit off it made me jump a bit- whilst stirring the pot... Not too bothersome so far.

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Originally Posted by jmoore

except when the flux lit off it made me jump a bit- whilst stirring the pot...

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Another argument against "fluxing" :madsmile: But apart from that, you seem to have got the casting method perfect. I have never been able to achieve such a close tolerance.

Oddly, even though the weights are close and near advertised weight, some small base voids were found. Tiny, but there.

The bullet finish displayed some oxide and dirt inclusions, hence the fluxing. It seems to help, but only if it's mixed well during the process. Usually sawdust works for me, but the wax flux seems to clean just a bit better. Cleaning needed probably due to all the red clay on the linotype. It was found behind an old print shop years back. I think much of the fluxing effect is due to the reducing atmosphere created, but there's more at work when the pot is stirred and the walls scraped. Have read various theories, none mention the reducing (versus oxidizing) factor, and generally don't answer for sure why it helps. You probably use nicer raw materials than I, so it's not as important.


ETA: On a completely different subject, there's an 1891 Argentine Mauser rifle that needs some range time. But I'm contemplating leaving it alone until a bullet mould can be obtained to shoot 200gr GC bullets, rather than going out and fouling the bore with 174gr jacketed RN soft points. Super bore, with not a hint of fouling currently. So, patience or immediate gratification? Knowing that the cast bulleted route is coming at some point...

Yee hah! Bullet mould handles "in stock" and ordered (2 pair). Shipping delay is now reduced from ~4 weeks to two days as well. The repaired handles will be reserved for

The current drama is that the Lyman lube and size press which is charged with the good black powder SPG lube is not to be found...Probably in a friend's gear buried in one the boxes from when his store closed. Remotely possible it got sold, but it seems unlikely as I had a set of H&I dies installed for another project...maybe...

Still resisting the temptation to load the 7,65 Mauser cases with jacketed bullets.

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Originally Posted by jmoore

ETA: On a completely different subject, there's an 1891 Argentine Mauser rifle that needs some range time. But I'm contemplating leaving it alone until a bullet mould can be obtained to shoot 200gr GC bullets, rather than going out and fouling the bore with 174gr jacketed RN soft points.

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Have you tried the Hornady #3130 - the long-nose bullets with a good cylindrical section and a flat base. That is what shoots best in my 1891 Argentine.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Have you tried the Hornady #3130 - the long-nose bullets with a good cylindrical section and a flat base. That is what shoots best in my 1891 Argentine.

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Have two boxes just for said purpose. But the notion of making this a dedicated cast bullet rifle is quite tempting. It's free of jacket fouling now. Have waited years and years for one of these rifles, a little more waiting doesn't seem all that big a deal.

If there were a good jacketed bullet that duplicated the original, then it might be different. Sort of like Krags, it just seems wrong to shoot 180gr bullets out of those as well, but those at least have some good .30 caliber 220 grain bullets available. About the only rifle type that gets "non-standard" weight bullets is the Japanese Type 99. Mostly because they uniformly do better with the 150gr bullets for some reason. That and I've never even owned more than one or two Japaanese military 7,7 rounds!

BTW, Still can't find that lubri-sizer...

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Still can't find that lubri-sizer...

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Couldn't find it, so bought a new one, although the interwebs seems to indicate it's unobtainium. Lyman 4500 at a gun shop known for it's high prices, but it was less than the current retail!

Did some range backstop mining last weekend. We picked up about 14 lbs in less than 15 minutes. Not a whole lot of jacketed bullets, but there must have been a swag of swaged lead bullets in the mess, as it took the addition of about 3 lbs of linotype to get good mould fill. Plus about 1/4 lb of 50/50 solder. That's stuff's running ~US$18 per lb. locally, though! Seems to cast light by about 2-3 grains on a 247gr bullet. Possibly because the metal is full of dirt!

A decent casting session with an old Lachmiller 250gr 2 cavity .433" SWCGC mould with metal known to cast OK:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8e540058-1.jpg
Sorted by weight in 0.1gr increments

And what happens when fighting the metal during the range recovery test:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9360e2d6-1.jpg

Oddly, some of the heavier bullets have poor fill-out, due to a higher lead content for both factors.

One of these days it would be nice to try a "store-bought" alloy of known composition!

Reading some of the new literature that comes with the Lyman 4500 lubrisizer, they recommend keeping only those bullets that weight within 1/2 grain of the average weight in a session. That seems rather difficult to achieve, especially with multi-cavity moulds. But the voids in bullets that are 1.5 and 2 grains light ARE frighteningly large! (Have photos in the camera, but forgot to bring it along today.)

The new sizer is fine, but the new handle isn't any sort of improvement as far as I can tell. The big .43 Spanish bullets don't cycle nearly as easily as the usual handgun bullets.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...57c991bd-1.jpg

The new mould handles are big! And they are just for regular old 2-cavity mould blocks.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...b72fa3fa-1.jpg

Patrick if you are still reading this mess, I noticed your heavy duty sprue plate. What's it's main purpose? A couple or three possibilities spring to mind.

Also, beginning to wonder if keeping the pot at 750°F is a little cool for good fill with softer bullets.

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Patrick if you are still reading this mess, I noticed your heavy duty sprue plate. What's it's main purpose? A couple or three possibilities spring to mind.

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It's a custom mould made by a friend. He just happens to have a stock of rather thick plate. It looks a bit rustic, but performs well. And I can tap the plate hard with a brass bar to cut the sprue without bending the plate!

---------- Post added at 07:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:23 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Also, beginning to wonder if keeping the pot at 750°F is a little cool for good fill with softer bullets

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I keep the thermostat pretty much at maximum, backing off a little as the level of the melt goes down. And I rest the mould on the top of the pot from time to time to warm up over the melt. With pure lead bullets I have never yet managed to cast any that were too hot in the mould, giving them the "frosted" look, but plenty that had poor filling from being too cold.

Photos of .43 Spanish bullets that were just a little light, at most 2gr shy of the "good" bullets which are 370gr.

The small cavity is about 0.080" wide and deep. And it's the lighter bullet, so it likely has more voids concealed.

Oh, and here's today's new lead supply. (thumbnail on the left) About 25-30lbs of "once fired" bullets:

Interesting that the void in both cases in is the same groove. That looks as if it could be a spot of baked-on contamination in the mould. Take a close look, maybe go over it with a brass/bronze bore brush.

Looks like that mucky load of old bullets would cause a thick layer of scum to form and impurities would almost certainly be responsible for the cavities. On another subject, I´ve found a cheap, simple gadget to get the bullets out of the grease so that the grooves remain filled. It´s more or less just an old case with the primer hole drilled out and a spring loaded plunger to eject the bullet once it´s been stamped out of the layer of grease.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by villiers

Looks like that mucky load of old bullets would cause a thick layer of scum to form and impurities would almost certainly be responsible for the cavities.

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Actually, after a brief run wet in the vibratory case cleaning machine and a good hosing off they cast melt and cast quite nicely. Did a run of "155gc" .357 mag bullets using that very same bucket load Saturday. about 90% of the bullets were in a max spread of 1.2 grains. Good fill out but had some oversize and overweight for the nominal diameter. As cast they were about 0.362" at 164.4gr average with 388 initial "keepers".

The .43 Spanish bullets were a mix of "pure" lead with some linotype added.

Good idea to clean the old lead in a tumbler before melting.
For some (as yet) unknown reason, my Werder´s reverted to inaccuracy again. A very similar Werder cav. carbine has just gone on the German eGun site for over 4000€ (although mine´s a LOT nicer)! So it´s now playing with its demise. Although I suspect it´s because I still haven´t got to the bottom of the re-loading process yet. The problem seems to be that most BP cases need a filler of some kind, whereas the 11.5 x 35R cases are too small to take the regulation 2.5 grammes of BP. And even with compressed powder, there´s no space left for the grease and paper wads. Don´t think it can be the barrel, as it´s got a mirror bore with strong rifling. And the barrel is firmly attached to the forestock fore and aft. So I´ll try again with a greatly reduced load (this was the most accurate setup).

Appropriately, being this is a "Woes" thread, the tumbler self destructed during that run. the fan motor rubbed through the wiring, which was slowing the thing down anyway. Sounded downright pitiful when I came outside to do the final rinse. Could have been shocking as well! When doing a diagonostic run empty, it shook enough to snatch one wire connector away, thus shutting it down. Rather surprising, but it was dry at the time, etc.

Maybe the Werder is just a 100m carbine. That's what it seems to be "saying".

Yes, I agree. It´s trying to stop me on my way to the auction site (and it knows what happened to the Mauser `71). I´ll experiment a while with the ammunition `cos I do want to find out why it´s ok sometimes ... and then not.

Remember that bucket of mud caked "used" bullets way back in Post #32? Here's what became of some of that mess:
Attachment 43526

388 nominal 0.357" GC bullets. Of which about 360 were kept and well over 300 fell within ±0.6 grains! (Some bullets in the weight tolerance were later culled for visual imperfections so I'm no longer sure of the exact numbers without returning to the loading area.)

Shot some of the lighter of that lot today out of a couple of .357 Mag revolvers with a stout charge of 2400. Generally good (but not spectacular) results at 25yds (targets all shot two handed standing at both distances). 50 yards was not as satisfying, but there was no leading in fifty rounds, so the test is considered a preliminary success.

The viabratory tumbler has also been re-rebuilt, this time with caulking sealing the two piece bowl and the wiring repaired, sealed, and moved away from the cooling fan in the base. Have yet to do more than a bench test before final reassembly, but "no smoke".

That target shows better than reasonable results! Were you expecting better?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by villiers

That target shows better than reasonable results! Were you expecting better?

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No, but it's good enough to be annoying! I'd like to work up a usable cast bullet load for shooting IHMSA field pistol class, which has targets out to 100yd. The initial test shows same promise, but needs to be about 1/2 the group size. A 1/3 reduction might do, but then the operator would have to be better at not getting in a hurry!

Am coming to the conclusion that sizing might well be the way to go. According to the only literature available to me at the moment, the original bullets (for my Werder) were made by compressing the lead and had a cavity at the base. As it seems only logical, differences in bullet size and weight would lead to inaccuracy that could only be eliminated by compression sizing. Minie bullets were previously available from H & N, but they no longer make them. Can sizing dies be made for individual calibres? Or can sizing only be done for readily available calibres? Think I´ll have to delve further into this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by villiers

the original bullets (for my Werder) were made by compressing the lead and had a cavity at the base.

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Swaged pure lead bullets were the standard for US .58" Minie ball production as well. Far more uniform and easier to do in large volumes. I would think most all BPCR rifles used swaged lead bullets as standard, but it's not a common option for small lots of projectiles. So we seem to be stuck with cast projectiles for the odd obsolete arms we attempt to shoot.

There are folk who do commercially produce swaged lead Minies around here. I much prefer them to the cast variety.

Vibratory cleaner's motor seems kaput. Can't find a replacement, so it may be a case of forking over US$50 for a replacement base assembly. IF Lyman have any in stock!

Just got a four cavity mould. Very nice. Except there's no handles to be had! Aieee!!!:banghead:

It's bad enough that the expenses keep piling up, but the product shortages are maddening. This is turning into a handgun shooting year, not sure why except it's hard to focus on both feeding and outfitting rifle and pistol at the same time.

And to add to all the general woes of BP and bullets, US Federal Laws now prevent brass from export. As there´s no manufacturer of Werder brass outside the US, my stock of about twenty cases will have to treated VERY carefully.

BTW, I wasn´t thinking of swageing new bullets, but of sizing the cast bullets. But I can hardly imagine that I´d be able to get a sizer made to the exact measurements of the Werder. If I could, I could than make the hollowed base ....

Villiers there are people in the NSSA who make sizing dies for the Lyman and RCBS sizers. I have .572 - .580 and the some of the ones for Maynard carbine and Gallagher carbine. Look up the North-South Skirmish Association site at the list of vendors. I lived in Michigan, there are machinist who make this stuff.


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So what exactly is the bore size of the Werder? Roughly 0.460" if it's an 11,5mm? (Closet Lyman gets is 0.459") Or is it regular Mauser size? (0.446" seems to be the H&I Lyman default.)

If doing a custom job, it seems the Lee push-through type bullet sizer that screws into a standard reloading press would be the easy route. Basic lathe work, but it requires pre-lubed bullets. I was surprised at how well the 0.358" Lee bullet sizer worked, given the rough finish of the conical area leading to the finish diameter. But no metal build-up or shaving at all! With just a little more work, the conical base forming step ought not be a huge leap.

I purchased these from Buffalo Arms in Idaho for about $45.00 each. They fit RCBS/Lyman lube sizers but are obviously more expensive than standard sizer dies. These size bullets precisely to the indicated diameters. Regards. Tom

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Originally Posted by jmoore

If doing a custom job, it seems the Lee push-through type bullet sizer that screws into a standard reloading press would be the easy route.

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Take a look at the Johannsen catalog. The Lee sizers can be ordered in special sizes. But the delivery will not exactly be overnight!

http://www.johannsen-jagd.de/data_de...og/katalog.php

I bought one in a standard size and turned up some inserts. The turning itself is not the problem. Your problem will be in finding someone who will cut the fine US thread on the insert, or getting hold of a suitable die to do it yourself. Industrial-quality US-thread dies are v. expensive here, so if you will only ever need one, it will probably be simpler to order a custom-made sizer. But, if you are like me and want to try sizing a couple of thous large, or smaller, then you will have to consider making inserts yourself or paying a local turner, both for reasons of price and delivery. Anyway, haven't you got a Hensel custom mold? The bullets ought to be OK as cast.

---------- Post added at 12:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 AM ----------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by villiers

As there´s no manufacturer of Werder brass outside the US, my stock of about twenty cases will have to treated VERY carefully.

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Patrick, please send me the basic dimensions of a fired case from your Werder (not from a data sheet - I never trust them blindly), and I may be able to advise you.
---------- Post added at 12:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 AM ----------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by villiers

So it´s now playing with its demise.

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If you must chuck it, chuck it at me! But knock the last zero off that fancy price you quoted.
Seriously, I think you may be expecting too much from the Werder. Getting the shots into a 10" black at 300 meters is good. With the short carbine sight radius it is excellent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Take a look at the Johannsen catalog. The Lee sizers can be ordered in special sizes. But the delivery will not exactly be overnight! http://www.johannsen-jagd.de/data_de...og/katalog.php

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Help me out here! Roughly what pages have the pertinent info?

Page 96 for Lee and p.100 for RCBS. At least in the 24. edition that I found online. If anything has been added in the meantime, you may have to scan forwards and backwards a little. However, pp.96-100 is the right region.

I´ll try and make exact measurements of the Buffalo Werder cases (to make it a bit more complicated, they´ve got the Mauser dished base). I´ve got the Hensel mould ... but shot the Werder again yesterday. I´d re-set the front sight and got ALL the rounds centred. But couldn´t get the height anything like standard (shooting from a very stable rest). They were either much too high or too low and much too varied to have been me. So I can only assume that it´s the weight of the bullets. If the carbine can shoot an accurate, centred group and only the height varies, it can be little else, and all I can do is to work on the ammunition. (With all your help) I´ll work on getting a sizing die.

BTW, Patrick, I was astounded at the eGun auction result. Sometimes quite rare items go for practically nothing and then ... goes through the proverbial roof.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

I bought one in a standard size and turned up some inserts. The turning itself is not the problem. Your problem will be in finding someone who will cut the fine US thread on the insert, or getting hold of a suitable die to do it yourself.

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:confused: And this bit was in reference to what? The Lee bullet sizing dies have only the coarse 7/8-"whatsits" thread on the OD. RCBS or Lyman bullet sizing dies have no threads at all...

Well spotted JM! And thanks for the tip. I fooled myself there, because the parts were in the same holder as the Lee push-through sizer.

The full story is as follows:

I have a 451 muzzle-loading target rifle. for which I purchased a Lee sizer. I wanted to try fine-tuning the bullet size and tin-lead alloy for best results. Being both impatient and economic, I did not want to pay out a lot of money and have to wait until the season was over for Lee sizers in various bullet diameters.

(BTW, the conclusion of all the experimentation was that the rifle performs best with the bullets fired as cast from the Hensel mould with 3% tin!)

I therefore turned up my own sizer inserts for an anonymous (RCBS?) die shell with a 5/8"x 18 internal thread. The original Lee sizer is on the right.

Attachment 43599

You can see that I made the new ram to be somewhat longer than the original Lee ram. The Lee ram is rather too short, leaving at least two bullets in the sizer when you are finished. But the maximum length is determined by the press stroke. And the ram must fit the inside of the sizer insert fairly closely, otherwise the bullet base tends to smear around the top of the ram.

The external diameter of the sizer insert must also fit the bore of the die shell quite closely. The knurled section at the top means that one has to cut the thread from the bottom. Since the diameter of the sizer insert is a trifle larger than the core diameter of the thread, the result is a vestigial thread up the body of the sizer. Note also that there is a clear-cut groove between the knurled section and the thread, to allow a thread run-out. This is vital, whether you cut the thread by hand or in a lathe, to avoid a nasty jam when the cutting tool reaches the end of the thread just before the knurled section.

Maybe someone else can identify the die shell which I used. It has no markings that I can find.

Anyway, I hope the principle is now adequately clear for those with machine tools to do likewise.

Which leads me to the following P.S:
Patrick, if you really want to follow the BPCR path seriously for oddball BPCR calibers, you need a small lathe - or a friendly local turner who is interested enough to spend time on such one-off projects and a well-filled purse! Even if one had the money, eternal season-long waits for custom equipment would lead to a loss of interest. When I have an idea, I want to try it out last week!

I always wanted to try my hand on a lathe. Shortly after German re-unification, I found a large Soviet 4WD with a fully fitted out cabin that contained a small lathe etc. on the airfield. It was almost mine, when an East German NCO turned up and insisted that the lathe (new and unused) together with a whole collection of tools (still wrapped in wax paper) was to be scrapped. Later, it was my pleasure to refuse the NCO his first civilian job.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by villiers

insisted that the lathe (new and unused) together with a whole collection of tools (still wrapped in wax paper) was to be scrapped.

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And did you believe him?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by villiers

Sometimes quite rare items go for practically nothing and then ... goes through the proverbial roof.

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That's why I go for "armory mint" - kicked around on the outside, as new on the inside. Exactly what you cannot judge at online auctions!

That was the basis of contention. I offered to purchase the lathe and donate it to the local gliding club. But he insisted on his "regulations" and had it smashed and tipped onto a scrap container. It was later pointed out that the lathe was an exact copy of a British Victorian era model.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Just got a four cavity mould. Very nice. Except there's no handles to be had! Aieee!!!

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Dad-gummed capitalist swine! Lyman 4-cavity moulds have a narrow handle slot and big retaining pins. RCBS two cavity moulds have a slot just enough narrower than the two cavity Lymans that they won't fit on Lyman handles. Well, after converting the old Lachmiller moulds to fit the old Lyman small handles, dealing with these new moulds was without much hand wringing. Should have a fairly universal fit set of handles and moulds finished this morning. Slots have been enlarged and the pin hole drilling is underway. The old Lyman single cavity moulds won't work, but there's handles enough already for them.

Can't think of a good reason for all of the attachment variations for moulds of basically the same size except as a money making annoyance. Oddly, the Lyman and RCBS bullet sizing dies are acknowledged by at least Lyman as being interchangable in their respective presses.

Would it be that difficult to make wooden handles (maybe out of a piece of old broom handle? ... or just use a length of plastic hose?)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by villiers

Would it be that difficult to make wooden handles (maybe out of a piece of old broom handle? ... or just use a length of plastic hose?)

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"Handles" referring to the whole scissors-like assembly in this case. The wooden gripping area isn't a drama.

Did have a self-induced defugalty drilling the attaching holes for the four cavity mould. The Lyman sprue cutting plate has a secondary lock at the opposite end which can bind the blocks if not out of the way altogether when closing. So when holding the handles shut on the blocks with shims at the bottom of the grooves during the drilling operation, the holes were generated at a slight angle. After pins were installed the mould would tend to remain slightly open at the top! Took a while to figure out the cause, but it was not to hard to correct the problem after much head scratching. "Murphy" must like bullet casters...

Maybe we´re just too discriminating. I´m sure the people who originally used BP firearms wouldn´t have expected to achieve the accuracy we now expect of modern military weapons. Most likely `twas just letting off a volley against a mass of `enemy´.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by villiers

Maybe we´re just too discriminating.

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What's this "we're" comment? I'm thinking it's rather more singular in nature! ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Did have a self-induced defugalty drilling the attaching holes for the four cavity mould. The Lyman sprue cutting plate has a secondary lock at the opposite end which can bind the blocks if not out of the way altogether when closing. So when holding the handles shut on the blocks with shims at the bottom of the grooves during the drilling operation, the holes were generated at a slight angle. After pins were installed the mould would tend to remain slightly open at the top! Took a while to figure out the cause, but it was not to hard to correct the problem after much head scratching.

---

Here's some photos. The sprue plate has to be positioned very specifically for the binding to occur. At least it doesn't do it all the time now that the holes in the jaws have been "de-angled"...

"What's this "we're" comment? I'm thinking it's rather more singular in nature! ;)"

True! I´ve just put so much effort into it. But not to worry, I´ve now ordered a new mould from Mr. Hensel which fills from the top and will be provided with a Minié type hollow base EXACTLY according to the specs in Storz´ book. Pity I can´t do much about my my deficiencies as a target shooter.

Discovered that soft swaged bullets ARE very sensitive to case mouth dimensions. The recovered bullets this weekend showed that the bottoms of th bullets badly gas cut, whilst the harder cast bullets of the same OD had no such problems. Not surprisingly, the swaged bullets leaded up the start of the revolvers' bores fairly quickly. Have just finished turning a larger plug.

On the casting front, that four cavity mould is VERY nice! The thicker sprue plate with additional lock eliminates a couple of persistant problems. Fairly uniform weights for all. Never did run the thing too hot, either.

Rain isn't condusive to casting outdoors, so the session was terminated a bit sooner than anticipated, however. Roughly 200 (?) bullets cast.

200! I´ve still got about 20 left from my last effort and am waiting for the new Hensel hollow base mould to make a new start. Wish I could get hold of my spent cast bullets but the 100 and 300 metre ranges have barriers and I can´t get to the butts. The 50 metre range is no good either as the sand is just too packed with spent rounds.

The larger expander ball seems to do the trick. The swaged bullets seat with minor press pressure and the new cast bullets can be seated with between 20-30 pounds force as measured on a couple of scales. Ended up seating the bulk of the cast bullets using thumb pressure whilst graping the case, but a little plate on top of the bullet was needed to keep it from being minorly painful! A left over cannulure provided a nice positive stop that happened to end up at matching the case mouth with the rear edge of the bullet's crimping groove.

Now I'm wishing there was an easy way to do precision cannulures on cases that don't have them!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Now I'm wishing there was an easy way to do precision cannulures on cases that don't have them!

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I have a tool that might do it, with some adaptation. One of those gadgets made to press a cannelure in lead bullets. I'll give it a try in the next few days and report back. My workshop isn't as impressively packed as yours, but I also have to dig around in the archaeological deposits.

Old German workshop proverb "He who keeps perfect order is too lazy to search!"

Do it look something like this Patrick?

Gave Patrick's theory a try on a .38 Special case, looks like it will do the trick.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vintage hunter

Gave Patrick's theory a try on a .38 Special case, looks like it will do the trick.

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:dancingbanana:

So what is that tool? And can they be bought? The way things are now, getting anything but the quickest little side jobs done could take months!

Beginning to understand the factory cannelure feature far better. But it's never been discussed as anything but a nuisance in all the reading I've come across concerning reloading.

ETA: Just noticed the "CH" logo. That would be known as a "clue"...Off to the Google thing...

ETA2: And here it is!:

http://www.ch4d.com/?com=catalog&vie...t&alias=CanToo

Only US$95. Might as well dig the hole a little deeper.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vintage hunter

Do it look something like this Patrick?

---

Yep, that's the gadget - I found mine this afternoon quite quickly in the Upper Cretaceous deposits. It's a tool from CH4D, for putting a crimp cannelure on lead bullets. However I think you need to make a plug to fill the case back to just in front of the cannelure and keep the neck round*, otherwise if you put enough pressure on to make a good groove, the neck might become distorted. I just dived in with an old, fired 45ACP case, not perfectly round, and that's what happened when the case slipped off the rolllers. But up to that point the case had been getting "groovy".

*And the plug can be made with a step to hold the case so that the groove is pressed in the right position.

Welllll...The larger expander wasn't the "end all, be all" answer to curing leading just past the forcing cone with soft swaged bullets. But the offender today hasn't had but the three factory proof rounds through it since it was new back in the mid 1980s until this last autumn when I "ruin't" it for collectors by shooting it. Otherwise the larger expander seems a vast improvement over the smaller "as supplied" units. The new four cavity mould's recovered range lead bullets performed better than any of the store bought stuff, even though the lightest bullets were used.

Additionally, the storm yesterday uncovered lots of bullets for recycling! Cheap muddy fun we had picking "lead berries" from the berm. Possibly 60 lbs altogether in a fairly brief session.

One new woe: probably had the sprue plate screw a bit tight on one mould set. Fairly well galled in the area immediately surrounding the screw. Plate might be somewhat warped as well, but I think it's mostly the pivot area wear that's keeping the plate from sitting flat on the mould top.

A couple of photos from last weekend's casting session (Too busy shooting today to do range photos, so it must have been a good morning even though it was questionable at the start!):

(See Post #64) Some recovered bullets that sat a little long in a plastic bag. Lost some of their "shiny" in the hot, moist conditions over the past week:
These are "pre-custom expander".

Swaged bullets. Note the erosion in the rifling groove near the base. Gas cutting or galling?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...494b6a88-1.jpg

"Store bought" cast bullets (on the left side of the enlarged photo) loaded more less the same as the swaged and at about the same time:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...4197d4cc-1.jpg

They measured the same diameter (within 0.001") as the wsaged before loading. The bevel base and their hardness make them unlikely to "bump up" to fit, so it seems the swaged bullets were sized down at loading, especially near the base. Rifling just isn't nearly as well defined. Swaged bullets work great in .22 rf arms, even revolvers, so why not larger revolver bullets? There's got to be a way to do it. Or is that a subject for another thread?

These aren't milsurp revolvers or pistols being tested currently, but those WILL be tested before it's all over. Might as well abuse some more "range refined" examples first. And one day the .43 Mauser chambered Remington Lee, and the 50-70, and maybe even some 45-70s! Then there's the 1891 Argentine Mauser patiently awaiting a bullet mould and gas checks.

I'm not enough of a metallurgist to be sure about this, but maybe the swaging procedure causes a surface hardening and unrelieved stress that leads to bits splitting off the bullet, either when it is forced down the barrel or when it impacts the berm. A clue would be if you observe worse leading of the bore with swaged bullets than cast ones.

Those pics would seem to further convince that hollow based bullets are the way to go.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by villiers

Those pics would seem to further convince that hollow based bullets are the way to go.

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Mmmm, a guarded "yes". But mostly in situations where using a bullet that is at or slightly above groove diameter is not possible. Rifled muskets for one instance. And not always then! (Hornady makes a nice reversed stepped bullet that engraves the front band, but it's still hollow based.) Some cartridges just won't chamber with a full sized bullet seated in the case. (Assuming that the case isn't doing further bullet diameter reduction upon seating as happened above!) But otherwise you end up having to forgo base wads that protect the bullet's base from the black powder's low grade explosion.

Here's the damaged mould set mentioned several posts ago (#72) after being attacked with a flat rock:

Attachment 43820Attachment 43818Attachment 43817

Added some copper based anti-seize and was very careful in setting the sprue plate tension at reassembly. There's a little light visible under the plate at the outer portion, but it's probably less than 0.003". I get nervous when I can see any light between flat surfaces, but it's often less than 0.0005", so consider the source!:madsmile:


Attachment 43819

I believe Patrick Chadwick mentioned an aluminum based anti-seize recently, but this can will do me for the foreseeable future. ETA: Here's a link for reference: A square screw?

BTW, IIRC, lead is generally considered "self annealing" at room temperatures, so swaged bullets are very unlikely to have a hard outer shell unless they're oxidized. Even heat treated wheel weights will slowly soften over time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmoore

I believe Patrick Chadwick mentioned an aluminum based anti-seize recently, but this can will do me for the foreseeable future.

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Yep, either will do. It was the spray can that persuaded me to buy the alu version.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmoore

BTW, IIRC, lead is generally considered "self annealing" at room temperatures, so swaged bullets are very unlikely to have a hard outer shell unless they're oxidized.

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OK, just a hypothesis, but do you have an alternative explanation? I just know that the lead sheet I use for soft vice jaws develops cracks after extensive use, so I think there is a work-hardening effect, even if small.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

is a work-hardening effect, even if small.

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In the short term, yes. And if there's microfractures, they won't heal themselves. As for the eroded areas in the lower grooves region, I'm thinking it's gas cutting. It was quite shiny just after having been recovered. A bullet trap that would damage the bullet less would be helpful. Could drag the revolver down to the "crick" on the hunting property and procede to get wet!

Cast a bunch of bullets, but fought with the process for well over an hour. Couldn't get good crisp edges! Even with the melt nearing 800°F. Finally just cast a mess until the pot ran dry, threw in the sprues, reject bullets and some overflow back in the pot and started again. Oddly, the bullets came out much better, even at much lower temperatures! The two melts will be kept separate. Would like the mould to drop bullets ~0.002" larger, but have yet to try "beagling" the blocks.

Mine came out crisper when I started adding a dash of tin.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by villiers

Mine came out crisper when I started adding a dash of tin.

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Had done that during the "fight" stage. I dunno. Just one of those things that happens when using metal without a pedigree, I guess. Wishing for a bigger bottom pour pot, but it just another one of those items in short supply right now. If there was another outlet on another circuit outside, it would be interesting to try the two old 10 lb pots in tandem. One for casting and the other to remelt the sprues and bad bullets.

The birds overseeing the operation finally feel comfortable enough to feed their young whilst I'm casting. Last week I had to go inside regularly to let them do their thing. THey do help keep the bugs in check. Watched them pick insects out of the bean patch quite often! Good thing, too. It's a "no insecticide" garden. Mostly 'cuz we'll often eat whilst picking!

One of the "overseers" of this operation, but it's only a couple of weeks old at this point. It's either hungry or it's complaining about it's "fru-fru" domicile...
Attachment 43883
Weighed last weekend's two batches of what should have been fairly uniform metal. Beats all I ever saw. The lighter bullets cast at higher temperature had fill out problems more than the heavier second batch which should have less alloying metal in the lead.

Attachment 43884
Batch #1: Probably as many rejected, but they ended up in the second batch after remelting!

Attachment 43882
Batch#2: Including those rejected for visual defects at the bottom of the frame according to weight. Weight of this lot was about 2gr heavier on average than the first. Had the two lots been joined, the "stack" would be very "W" shaped.
The lower mess (minus rejects) ended up weighing ~9 lb. 10oz. so there should be about 265+ bullets here.

Found an ingot of hard lead and got carried away! Was going to do a few 358429 bullets for testing purposes, since there is mysteriously no 0.357" sizing die in the kit and 0.358" bullets just won't fit in most of my revolvers. But...That lead cast so well it ended up being consumed just about altogether! 8 or so pounds later:

Attachment 44111

Can you tell it was a two cavity mould? The gap between the two stacks is actually only one bullet wide in the "1/10 grain incremental" sorting system, but it took so long to narrow the gap that I just didn't feel like moving the piles closer. Just about no rejects for visual dramas either. But they certainly cast on the large side! About 0.361" average.

Also found that developing loads can be very individualistic even with firearms of the same make, model, caliber, etc. In this case:

Attachment 44112

Two very non-milsurp S&Ws in .44Mag that are only a few years apart in age and ~5" in barrel length. One loves the range lead 429421 bullets with a Unique load that falls between published data for .44 Spl and .44 Mag . The other wants "store bought" hard 240gr LSWCBB bullets and a maximum charge of Trail Boss.

Attachment 44113

What's not to like with that 50 yard group shot standing? (Granted it's a 25yd timed and rapid target.) Which was repeated over two shooting sessions with varying degrees of shooter error! But change loads and it prints in a different spot, often with a L-R bias in addition to the vertical changes. And not nearly as tight "patterns".

I can't help but think of villiers' fight for consistency with his carbine. He may be but one variable away from groups that will please him! (I may be joining the BP milsurp carbine club- IF I can work out a swap for an unfortunate looking 11mm Spanish chambered Remington RB.)

Am still just inches from success. Hensel `phoned to check on the size of the Minié base recess (I sent him the original Bavarian bullet drawings). Even if it doesn´t turn out to be benchrest accurate, I´m keeping the Werder, just for it´s looks. Took the .308 LE No. 5 to the 300 metre range yesterday .... and got almost all of 50 rounds in the black, so was chuffed. Think my years of indecision whether to keep the LE No. 5 in .303 or the .308 are now over. I like the .303 ... BUT the .308 is definitely more accurate and easier to re-load, and even though .308 cases are no longer to be found, ankle deep on the range, I can still get hold of ample supplies free. The .308 caused a spot of bovver from the starts with spent cases jamming in the breech. But now is as smooth as butter.

That 50 yard group is outstanding! I couldn´t do that lying down with the gun in a vise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmoore

One of the "overseers" of this operation, but it's only a couple of weeks old at this point. It's either hungry or it's complaining about it's "fru-fru" domicile...

---

If it's like the redstarts in our garden, it's trying to tell you to stop playing around and get digging!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

If it's like the redstarts in our garden, it's trying to tell you to stop playing around and get digging!

---

The little brown bird family has vacated the premises. Looked mostly like wrens, but had a odd call that I've not heard before.

The 200gr 7,65/.303 mould showed up Saturday along with the 0.357" sizer. Now just need 0.30 cal gas checks...

Oh, and bought a small cement mixer to clean the range lead. Works quite well and easily handles 50-60 lb. loads. It was on sale at the same price as a heavy duty vibratory cleaner, but the tub capacity of the latter is way less. And it's not much good for mixing cement, which I have some call for in the near future. Some folk use the cement mixers for cleaning brass, as well, but aside from .45 ACP I tend to sort my brass, and have very few large lots of any one type.

Some developments:

1: Cast bullets make their debut against the clock and steel.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...d155a0dd-1.jpg
A very non-milsurp S&W 29-5 6" AFS .44 Mag was one entry this day. Targets at 25, 50, 75 and 100 yards.

In actual fact, it was a last second decision, as I had intended to set a baseline with storebought cast bullets. But instead, a load that won't be used again as it's a little lighter than I want was chosen, just to get a feel for the home cast bullets' performance past 50 yards. Probably not the best approach, but enthusiasm won over logic about ten minutes before shooting the match. Only shot an 18 out of 40, but the misses were consistant, and not unexpected, given that the gun was zeroed for the other load and no shooting had been done with this revolver past 50 yards in roughly ten years! Actually did rather better than anticipated. Will likely switch to the 10 3/8" revolver next time over the 6", and will be starting basically from scratch again, but the leading problems are far less severe than in the past, and prelimenary testing is promising.

Here's a shot after the second run at 25yds. 4 out of five isn't horrible. The rain came and went, often downpours! The warm moist air kept my case of "shingles" at a low ebb (diagnosed officially the following monday), so it was a good thing.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...e08f3ed7-1.jpg

2: May have found some gas checks for the 7,65 1891 Argentine Mauser project.

3: Also had delivered to a friend some HI TEK bullet coating, both regular and high build formulas. They may prove quite useful in getting near military velocity out of the cast ~200gr projectiles. Probably not much help with BPCR loads, though.

Found some (500) hard cast 250gr. .45 Colt bullets today for not much more than the cost of the raw materials. Will probably melt them down for use in the 7,65 Argentine. Seems a shame, somehow, but it's probably the fastest way to move the project along. Possibly cheaper than ordering raw linotype after shipping is figured in. Anybody else ever recycle perfectly good bullets this way?

.44 and .30 caliber gas checks arrived yesterday. And the new motorized base portion of the vibratory tumbler. Haven't done anything with the HI TEK coating, yet.
The 1891 Argentine bore slugs out to .0312" and is very smooth and uniform feeling! The coating would be probably best sized with a push through Lee die, but they jump from 0.311" to 0.314". May bore out a 7/8-14 die to accept a Lyman H die, but there may be not enogh wall thickness if the sizing effort gets heavy. Only about 0.040" thick!

Too tired after work to shoot this morning. Several days of thunderstorms made sleep problematic. Figured it would be a waste of resources to go. But too jittery to sleep now!