Printable View
I am expecting to receive an 1867 Werndl soon. If it is indeed an unmodified 1867 then it will be in 11.15x42R not the later 11.15x58R.
Im have seen references to creating cases for the 11.15x58R from Winchester.348 or Lebel 8mm cases. I have not been able to find similar advice for the shorter 11.15x42R. Does anyone have experience of making cases for the 11.15x42R?
That should be fairly simple, by shortening, annealing and reforming the usual Mauser 11.15x60R case.
I think Patrick Villiers has some experience with this for the Werndl. I have done it for the 11.15x38R .
A straightforward exercise - if you have the dies.
However, don't rush out and buy dies etc. until you actually have the Werndl in your hands and can check the chambering.
The tabatiere-style construction of the Werndl makes it awkard to make a chamber casting in the usual manner.
As you are in France, the simplest way to check the proper case size is to take an 8x50R Lebel case, ink it over with a felt pen, allow to dry for several seconds, then insert the Lebel case into the Werndl chamber and twiddle it round and round.
When you remove the case there will be a bright line rubbed through the ink.
Measure the diameter of the case at this line.
If you do this carefully, the method is quite sensitive enough to show you whether the proper case diameter is
(approx.) 13 mm = 11.15x42R or
(approx.) 14 mm =11x58R.
No, Patrick. I´ve got a Werder (not Werndl).
Patrick
Thank you Patrick. I can do a molten sulphur chamber cast when I remove the action to check for actual size.
The cost of a press and dies would nearly match the cost of my 4 transitional rifles. So far I have got away with fireforming cases to match my chamber. Do you know of any case that will go into the 11.15x42R chamber to be thus formed? I fear that suitable cases for forming will be too long to go in as they are.
Oops! These Werders and Werndls and Wänzls get confusing!Quote:
Originally Posted by villiers
Not like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by yulzari
1 Set of Lee 11mm Mauser dies. The sizer has been shortened (in this example, for the 11.15x37R). The 11.15x42R will not require such drastic shortening. As will be explained.
Attachment 54269
2 Lee hand-held press.
If your rifles cost less than this solution, they must have been giveaways!
Some explanation is required: Very old cartridge rifles need to be treated as individual cases, because of the combined effects of original manufacturing tolerances plus wear. This is the world before CIP and SAAMI, and you need to treat any dimensional information that you may find with caution. In general, you should not assume that a fire-formed cartridge for one rifle will fit perfectly in another rifle with the same nominal chambering. In many cases it will not fit at all!
This variability means that die manufacturers make their dies to a minimum size. My experience is that BPCR dies can be noticeably undersized. A well-known example is the Lee die set for the Martini-Henry, which sizes the neck down so that it is suitable for something like a .458" bullet, for a caliber 45 rifle, but far too tight to take the .468"-.470" that one typically needs for a good fit in an original 577-450.
Let's look at some "real-world" cases.
Attachment 54270
1) On the left is a new commercial case for the 11.15x60R Mauser. Note that the shoulder is low and gentle, compared with...
2) A fire-formed case from my M1871, which has been featured in this forum before. Look it up!
If this case was to be reformed in the full-size die, the shoulder would be worked so hard that it would not last very long - and these cases are expensive. So it is not an option, but necessity, that the cases are only neck-sized after the first fire-forming. And then the cases are ideal - but only for that rifle. In fact if you try to insert no 2) into my M1871 Jaeger, it will not fit!
3) A fire-formed case from the Jaeger. Note that the shoulder has a slightly different form. Although this case would fit into the M1871, the shoulder would be reformed and case life would be shortened. I have to keep the cases in separate sets for the two rifles.
4) Is a case formed for the 11.15x37R cartridge for the M1879 "Grenzaufsehergewehr" (border guards rifle).
This was made with the cut-down 11.15x60R sizer die shown in the first photo. The die has to be cut down so that the shoulder ends up low enough to enable the case to be chambered for fire-forming. The starter case is the standard 11mm Mauser case, shortened and annealed before sizing.
I know of no such case. You will have to start with the 11.15x60R. And you should be aware that according to the published data, the rim may be too thick for the Werndl. You will just have to try a sample case to see how it fits, and thin down if necessary, but only if necessary, since the Werndl will probably have more room than the data suggests.Quote:
Originally Posted by yulzari
Now for the good news!
The 11.15x42R will not require such drastic lowering of the shoulder. The shoulder is about 2.5mm lower than on the M1871 case. And it should not break your budget to get a Lee die set and have it shortened by about 1/8".
But now look at 1) again. The commercial case made with the typical commercial caution of undersized dimensions. The shoulder is noticeably lower than either of the two fire-formed cases. In fact, after shortening the neck, it would probably fit into the Werndl chamber without lowering the shoulder at all.
And you would not need to anneal the case.
If you are lucky, all you need to do is shorten the neck of the 11.15x60R case, and fireform it!
But you will still need to check the rim thickness. So buy a pack of 11mm Mauser cases and get started :thup:
You could try Buffalo Arms (temp. unavailable but on back order and should be in by next month). Expensive, but a once in a lifetime investment using BP.
Thank you Patrick. Much very useful information. Possibly my issue is that, with careful buying of items that need restoring and are misidentified, I can buy another rifle for 150€. On the other hand I should be thinking that a press will let me load for any future rifles. But then this is a man who deprimes with a nail and a hammer, primes with a copper tube and a hammer and sizes bullets with a drilled hole in some scrap 400 year old oak, a piece of scrap brass rod and, of course, a hammer. Did I mention the hammer? It's a good hammer. Cost me 50 cents at a vide grenier.
We will see the size when it arrives. Chappie is waiting for my cheque to clear. It will be interesting to see if a sulphur cast differs from a wax one as I shall try both methods. I will be able to see what spring steel strip I can scrounge to make a new drum leaf spring and source it's retaining screw. The leaf spring should temper from full hard nicely in the molten lead when I am casting some bullets. Less smoke than frying it in burning tallow. 20th and 21st centuries? Never heard of them.
I used Cerro to cast the chamber and the barrel ... and then got Hensel to make me a bullet mold.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yulzari
... which is about what Patrick Villiers will have paid for his Hensel mould.
If you want to shoot these old bangers, you will just have to get used to the idea that the reloading gear (dies + cases + maybe a bullet mould) is often going to cost you more than the rifle.
I bought my Egyptian Rolling Block with a set of RCBS dies for about what the die set alone would have cost. Or else I would not have bought it. Of course, you only really need the die set to form the cases for first firing, once per case. After that, BPCR cases should be neck-sized only. And for both neck-sizing (which you can sometimes avoid) and bullet seating there may be cheaper alternatives, using pistol dies, for instance. But it is the vital first forming that requires those horribly expensive dies.
I plan on a BPCR needing at least 80, better 100, properly formed cases. This covers the maximum likely requirement of a competition weekend shooting at 3 distances + a practice round + a few reserves. Look up the price of ready-to fire Martini-Henry or Snider cases, multiply by 100, and you have an amount that motivates you to learn how to reform Cal.24 shotgun cases.
And doing it yourself - being able to do it yourself - provides more satisfaction than just paying out huge sums of money.
Your Werndl looks like an easy entry into the do-it-yourself BPCR world. Go for it:thup:
I had some Snider and Martini Henry cartridges formed for me from CBC brass and they are fireforned to my chambers and reloaded (also fireformed 16 bore CBC brass into Greener Special Bore for my 80€ Greener Egyptian Police MkI shotgun) so I have dipped my toe in the water. Werndl is in the post now.
It has arrived. I may post some photographs on another thread. But, to keep to the matter in hand, I have made a chamber cast as below.
I tried bathroom silicone sealant. Don't! Tried sulphur but melting powder was vv smelly and the cast would not remain whole. This one was done with paraffin wax after oiling the chamber and preheating the metal with a paint stripper. Worked a treat, kept topping it up as it shrank on cooling and inserted a screw to hold one end. Popped it in the freezer for 2 hours after it had set then it came out with no problems at all. Another time I will add a wax crayon for colour.
I have marked where the 42 case should end and the 58 case should end. The apparent end is at 54mm but there is little discernible change as it becomes the throat with the rifling becoming apparent at 63mm. There is only a short shoulder of about 3,5mm.
Would this match to the 11,15x58R rechambering of the 1867 11,15x42R? The rear sight is still graduated to 1400 paces so is not updated.
Attachment 54570Attachment 54571
Quote:
Originally Posted by yulzari
I have already provided the basic information you need to answer this question: And the answer is - neither one nor the other!
What you have measured seems to be considerably fatter than the 11x58R.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
base diameter 13.86mm, you have 14.7mm
rim diameter 15.62, you have 16.5mm
case at shoulder 13.26, you have 14.0mm
neck start 11.8mm, mouth 11.62mm, you have 12.2mm.
All this is seriously oversize for the 11x58R. In fact, the neck diameter suggest that it is not a 11.15mm calibre at all! :eek:
I suspect you may have a real oddball chambering, like the 11x59R/11.3x59R / .45 Turkish Peabody-Martini :eek::eek:
- or one of the 2 Rumanian versions of the Peabody-Martini cartridge (the short shoulder is suggestive).:eek::eek::eek:
Sounds crazy? Not if you consider that the Werndl was a rifle of the Austro-Hungarian empire, and would have found its way into the Balkans and beyond...where the next generation of users could have rechambered it to use Peabody-Martini ammo.
In other words, you need to make a very accurate casting with, if not sulphur, then Wood's metal.
And when making length measurements, do not forget that you are probably measuring from the front of the rim, so you need to add on about 2mm for the rim thickness, to compare with published length measurements taken from the base.
You also need to drive a soft-lead bullet (45 muzzle-loader ball?) right through the bore from end to end, to establish what the actual bore diameter is.
Slug the bore, make the casting, post the results, and then we can think again.
Hence the question. However, I took note of your comment and ran a caliper down the bore and breech to compare to the wax cast. The cast comes out as oversize and the breech and bore match 11,15x58R albeit slightly larger but within the range over a loose reaming and a worn (but shootable) bore so I will go ahead and treat it as 11,15x58R. The rim lip is still over 16mm though. I have found '77' stamped twice below the receiver. Hopefully that is a sign it was modified to M1865/77.
Thank you for the advice.
I think we crossed in posting. Interesting ideas. I have seen one that was taken to .43 Spanish in Argentina.
Forcing a Martini Henry round (in soft lead) up the muzzle gave 11,32mm/11.57mm or .445"/.455".
Decided to carefully repeat everything. Got pretty much the same result and established the calipers were not put in straight into the breech so the dimensions pretty much stand. Checked out 11,43x55R Turkish Peabody Martini and No2 Musket and it looks close to them. Certainly a .45"ish not .43". The shoulder looks more Turkish than No2. So my Martini mould could be suitable. I have seen references to making No2 from CBC 32 bore cartridges so, presumably one could do the same with Turkish?
I am kindly being sent a No2 Musket case and a Turkish Peabody Martini case to try in it. I am tending towards Romanian Steyr Martini as the model so N02 will be a good match. We will see if either fits in and the fireformed result if one does.
I can only advise you on the basis of your measurements. It is not easy to distinguish between the various "flavors" of these old cartridges in worn chambers. So I think a good idea would indeed be to get hold of a 32-bore case, size it down somehow with something so that it fits, and fireform it. That will give you an excellent idea of what you need, regardless of what it is called.Quote:
Originally Posted by yulzari
And the 32-bore case is an economical starting point for cartridges such as the 11x50R Albini (maybe also the Comblain, maybe also the Brazilian and Belgian versions, depending on chamber wear), Peabody-Martini, Romanian Peabody, Egyptian Remington, 11,4x55R and -59R Turkish, No. 1 Musket, No. 2 Musket.... The "not invented here" syndrome was rampant in those days!
In fact, since using anything else but the 32-bore case is going to be very expensive, I would instantly get at least 100, especially as availability appears to be a bit erratic.
As you live in France, may I suggest that you get in touch with the Arquebusiers de France (of which I am a member) as a way of meeting other people who have had this kind of problem and who may be able to help you with sourcing the cases? Look for a muzzle-loaders meeting not too far away, and go there to meet shooters and vendors.
No2 and Turkish Martini kindly provided trial cases arrived this morning. Tried them both and they bottomed out short. The base case dimensions should have let them chamber but the shoulders are a gnats too far forward. I tried a .276 WSM that has a crisp shoulder shape and a case that is not too loose. Its neck bottomed out in the chamber at 33.6mm (say 1.4") from the top of the rim so that is where my shoulder starts. Lord alone knows what it actually is. Suggestions have included necked up .43 Remington, Spanish or Egyptian, and whatever it was that the Montenegrins or Persians had theirs made for. Comparing it to the 1867 11.15x42 drawings the case wall length is not too far out. I would hazard a guess that it is an 1867 chamber reamed out to increase the capacity to match a new/rebored .45" barrel. I hereby name it the '45 Ruritanian Gatling' until I know otherwise.
A case made as a shortened Turkish Martini cut to 50mm and with a shoulder starting at 33mm above the rim top (ie not from the base/bottom) would probably do the job.
Comments welcomed with open arms!