Werndl 11.15x42R 11mm scharfe Patrone M.67

[yulzari]

Thank you Patrick. I can do a molten sulphur chamber cast when I remove the action to check for actual size.

The cost of a press and dies would nearly match the cost of my 4 transitional rifles. So far I have got away with fireforming cases to match my chamber. Do you know of any case that will go into the 11.15x42R chamber to be thus formed? I fear that suitable cases for forming will be too long to go in as they are.

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[Patrick Chadwick]

The cost of a press and dies would nearly match the cost of my 4 transitional rifles...

Not like this:

1 Set of Lee 11mm Mauser dies. The sizer has been shortened (in this example, for the 11.15x37R). The 11.15x42R will not require such drastic shortening. As will be explained.
Attachment 54269
2 Lee hand-held press.

If your rifles cost less than this solution, they must have been giveaways!

Some explanation is required: Very old cartridge rifles need to be treated as individual cases, because of the combined effects of original manufacturing tolerances plus wear. This is the world before CIP and SAAMI, and you need to treat any dimensional information that you may find with caution. In general, you should not assume that a fire-formed cartridge for one rifle will fit perfectly in another rifle with the same nominal chambering. In many cases it will not fit at all!

This variability means that die manufacturers make their dies to a minimum size. My experience is that BPCR dies can be noticeably undersized. A well-known example is the Lee die set for the Martini-Henry, which sizes the neck down so that it is suitable for something like a .458" bullet, for a caliber 45 rifle, but far too tight to take the .468"-.470" that one typically needs for a good fit in an original 577-450.

Let's look at some "real-world" cases.
Attachment 54270

1) On the left is a new commercial case for the 11.15x60R Mauser. Note that the shoulder is low and gentle, compared with...

2) A fire-formed case from my M1871, which has been featured in this forum before. Look it up!

If this case was to be reformed in the full-size die, the shoulder would be worked so hard that it would not last very long - and these cases are expensive. So it is not an option, but necessity, that the cases are only neck-sized after the first fire-forming. And then the cases are ideal - but only for that rifle. In fact if you try to insert no 2) into my M1871 Jaeger, it will not fit!

3) A fire-formed case from the Jaeger. Note that the shoulder has a slightly different form. Although this case would fit into the M1871, the shoulder would be reformed and case life would be shortened. I have to keep the cases in separate sets for the two rifles.

4) Is a case formed for the 11.15x37R cartridge for the M1879 "Grenzaufsehergewehr" (border guards rifle).
This was made with the cut-down 11.15x60R sizer die shown in the first photo. The die has to be cut down so that the shoulder ends up low enough to enable the case to be chambered for fire-forming. The starter case is the standard 11mm Mauser case, shortened and annealed before sizing.

...Do you know of any case that will go into the 11.15x42R chamber to be thus formed? I fear that suitable cases for forming will be too long to go in as they are.

I know of no such case. You will have to start with the 11.15x60R. And you should be aware that according to the published data, the rim may be too thick for the Werndl. You will just have to try a sample case to see how it fits, and thin down if necessary, but only if necessary, since the Werndl will probably have more room than the data suggests.


Now for the good news!

The 11.15x42R will not require such drastic lowering of the shoulder. The shoulder is about 2.5mm lower than on the M1871 case. And it should not break your budget to get a Lee die set and have it shortened by about 1/8".

But now look at 1) again. The commercial case made with the typical commercial caution of undersized dimensions. The shoulder is noticeably lower than either of the two fire-formed cases. In fact, after shortening the neck, it would probably fit into the Werndl chamber without lowering the shoulder at all.

And you would not need to anneal the case.

If you are lucky, all you need to do is shorten the neck of the 11.15x60R case, and fireform it!

But you will still need to check the rim thickness. So buy a pack of 11mm Mauser cases and get started