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Howdah Pistol - Double-Barrel Pin-Fire
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Apparently these guns were carried on Elephant back to discourage tiger attack, among other things. Probably more of an anti bandit device. You'll see them in various calibers, rifled and unrifled... Here's the gist of it, if you believe what Wiki says. It's pretty close anywayzzz... Howdah pistol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Those are Belgian proof markings. The crown/E/LG/star designates it was proved in conformity of German Proof Laws of 1891. The crown/R indicates rifled barrels. The intertwined EL above the 10.9 is the provisional proof of the barrels prior to permanent breeching. Not certain but the 10.9 may be a caliber designation. Looks a bit too large in the pics but 10.9 mm roughly equals .429 caliber and it's a center fire, not a pin fire.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
vintage hunter
Those are Belgian proof markings. The crown/E/LG/star designates it was proved in conformity of German Proof Laws of 1891. The crown/R indicates rifled barrels. The intertwined EL above the 10.9 is the provisional proof of the barrels prior to permanent breeching. Not certain but the 10.9 may be a caliber designation. Looks a bit too large in the pics but 10.9 mm roughly equals .429 caliber and it's a center fire, not a pin fire.
As usual, blown away by the wealth of knowledge on this forum.
I was able to insert a .44 caliber casing into both chambers, but not able to close the action.
So, I'd say your evaluation is spot-on.
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They made them in lots of different calibers, even 303.
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Have confirmed 10.9 as being the bore diameter in millimeters. Being a BP fire arm the grooves would probably have been .008''-.010'' deep so I'm guessing actual bullet diameter would be around .450'' or so.
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It wouldn't be in 577/450 would it? The breech doesn't look big enough but hard to tell from here. Maybe .455 or .476? How long is the chamber? What shape?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
browningautorifle
It wouldn't be in 577/450 would it? The breech doesn't look big enough but hard to tell from here. Maybe .455 or .476? How long is the chamber? What shape?
How long is the chamber?
- Can you explain what you'd like me to measure for you? Explain like I was a child :P
I only ask because with my limited firearms knowledge, this pistol doesn't seem to have a "chamber."
Just two spots where the rounds are loaded, similar to a couch gun.
I'm surely missing something.
What shape?
- I want to say round, but that seems too obvious.
I can take better/more pictures, and take measurements.
Just tell me exactly what you need, and I'll get it tonight.
Do we have any idea of the manufacturer or origin of this pistol?
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1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
browningautorifle
It wouldn't be in 577/450 would it?
Same thing crossed my mind too. What a handful that would be. Probably frighten the living s%@T out of your elephant too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dttuner
How long is the chamber?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dttuner
What shape?
Just give us a inside measurement at the muzzle end and another at the chamber end for now. Should be able to figure out whether straight wall or bottle neck from that. If you have a good camera you might be able to get a descent shot of the chambers by shining a light in from the muzzle end seeing as how the barrels are so short. Something like this would give us a rough idea to toy around with until you can get more precise measurements.
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Is it a rifled barrel? Most I have seen are smooth bore .36 gauge (.410). Looks like a Belgian double barreled pistol to me. A smooth bore that shoots black powder .410 shotgun cartridges.
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It's spot on for many of the patterns of Howda... As pointed out, maybe the inside of the chamber has some sort of a shape? If just straight, it could well just be a shotgun or a simple straight walled pistol cartridge. just look through towards a decent but not too bright light and see if there's a taper from the base of the breech to a couple of inches forward... Maybe take a pic from the breech end towards a decent light. Not too bright though...
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I still think it's a 36 gauge a.k.a. 12mm a.k.a. .410 smooth bore ;-)
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Al we can do now is wait for dttuner to take some more pictures and make some precise measurements...
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So it's a straight walled cartridge that's a lot like a 45-70. Only way to get a true picture of the chamber is do a casting and to find the bore diameter you have to slug both barrels. Lots of work... Yes, it's rifled and I'd be working on some sort of cartridge if I had it...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
browningautorifle
So it's a straight walled cartridge that's a lot like a 45-70. Only way to get a true picture of the chamber is do a casting and to find the bore diameter you have to slug both barrels. Lots of work... Yes, it's rifled and I'd be working on some sort of cartridge if I had it...
Working on a cartridge, to shoot it?
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dttuner,
I think that you'll find that your howdah pistol is a 21/2inch ,410 shotgun shell fitted with lead conical bullets. = POWERFUL at close range, though with a rainbow trajectory.
(Howdah pistols came in rifled/SB and in bores of up to.72 caliber. - A few ML Howdah pistols were up to 4 gauge!!!)
Depending on who you believe, Lord Robert Baden-Powell (Later a Major General of British forces & founder of the Boy Scouts) once owned a Howdah pistol of either 8 or 10 bore. - The Howdah pistol (that MAY or MAY NOT be his) is a 10 bore SxS DB with 10" tubes & made by Rigby in the UK. = An 8 or 10 bore Howdah would have BRUTAL recoil.
yours, satx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
dttuner
to shoot it
Just me, but yes I would. Something not too powerful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
satx78247
21/2inch ,410 shotgun shell fitted with lead conical bullets.
Would they be the same ones used by the #1 Mk3s done up for prison with the 410 bore? Those are made up on 303 cartridges?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
satx78247
dttuner,
I think that you'll find that your howdah pistol is a 21/2inch ,410 shotgun shell fitted with lead conical bullets.
Would a modern 45 acp fit, and give you a better idea of the chamber size?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
browningautorifle
Just me, but yes I would. Something not too powerful.
Nobody I know reloads, unfortunately.
edit -
Fits like a glove.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6sujtigw-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...pufnybl0-1.jpg
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The 45 acp has no rim so it won't fit and it will turn this antique in a hand grenade! The barrels don't have any Belgian nitro proof marks so I would treat it as a black powder pistol just to be safe.
Please just take it to a gun smith and ask him to slug the barrel so you get to know the exact calibre. Don't start experimenting, you'll end up hurting yourself or the friend who will be standing next to you.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
UNPROFOR1994
The 45 acp has no rim so it won't fit and it will turn this antique in a hand grenade! The barrels don't have any Belgian nitro proof marks so I would treat it as a black powder pistol just to be safe.
Please just take it to a gun smith and ask him to slug the barrel so you get to know the exact calibre. Don't start experimenting, you'll end up hurting yourself or the friend who will be standing next to you.
Not sure where the misunderstadning came from, but only an idiot would fire a gun willy-nilly like this. Period.
We were discussing possible calibers. The 45 ACP is nearly identical to a .410/45LC, width-wise.
This was for size/dimension purposes only. Never even closed the action with the round in.
Popped it out backwards with a chopstick.
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1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dttuner
Fits like a glove.
It may look that way but I guarantee you it's a long way from it. DO NOT even consider shooting it with modern smokeless ammo regardless of how well it looks to fit. That gun was proofed for black powder.
I would like to see one more measurement if you don't mind. What is the size of the cartridge rim cut in the barrel breech face? It looks to be tapered so to get an accurate measurement you'll have to lay the caliper blades flat on the breech face and bracket the rim cut.......like this.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
vintage hunter
It may look that way but I guarantee you it's a long way from it. DO NOT even consider shooting it with modern smokeless ammo regardless of how well it looks to fit. That gun was proofed for black powder.
I would like to see one more measurement if you don't mind. What is the size of the cartridge rim cut in the barrel breech face? It looks to be tapered so to get an accurate measurement you'll have to lay the caliper blades flat on the breech face and bracket the rim cut.......like this.
0.568 inches.
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Hey dttuner, don't take mine and UNPROFORCE1994's post the wrong way. It's a habit of mine, and I'm sure his too, to speak up when we see a potentially dangerous situation. Just in case. You'd be surprised at what I've seen people do with guns. Scares me sometimes. I have this neighbor who's dumb a$$ grand kid came to me with a top break .32 revolver that wouldn't extract/eject the empties. I was thinking a worn extractor/ejector but when I saw it that obviously wasn't the trouble. This kid knows nothing about guns, and obviously the even bigger adult dumb a$$ hardware store clerk that sold him the ammo didn't either. To make a long story short the dumb a$$ clerk just tried different types of 32 ammo till he found one that would ''fit''. What he found was .32ACP, the revolver was chambered for .32 S&W short, a low pressure BP round that survived the transition to smokeless. The ACP rounds fired but the hammer and higher pressures wedged them in the chambers so tight they had to be punched out from the front of the cylinder with a dowel. Only explanation I have for there not being a catastrophic failure was that the revolver just happened not to be one of the weak designs from the late 1800's.
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I don't have enough information on black powder ammo to be able to sort through line drawings for the right possibility. Besides, the reamers probably weren't exactly match quality. The theory of the .410 with the solid ball makes sense and the rim is close. It would have been black powder too... They made them in lots of now extinct cartridges...
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I've seen quite a few of these Belgian double barreled pistols and even shot one, but they all were smooth bore and chambered for 36 gauge a.k.a. 12mm a.k.a. .410 shotgun cartridges.
Honestly, this is the first one I've ever seen with rifled barrels. The .410 solid ball theory does make sense, it would stabilize a solid projectile.
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I'm not completely sold on the .410 theory for various reasons. The dimensions are close but not that close. I'm fairly sure a 2'' .410 would fit and fire but not so sure a 2.5'' would or if the 2.5'' version even existed when this gun was made. A .410 RB would fall right through the bores and a conical would need to be ether a heel type or Minie ball to engage the rifling. However, I can find no reference to that type of .410 ammunition even being produced. Can anyone else? The rim cut diameter of the barrels is .045'' larger than modern .410's and could've let the extractor jump the rim if the rough chambers caused stiff extraction with brass cased shells.
I'm not convinced this gun was made as a .410 but, given the roughness of the chambers, I do think it's quite possible it could have been crudely modified later on to fire .410's.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
vintage hunter
I'm not completely sold on the .410 theory
I completely agree, but it would need to be a bit closer to me so I could make a chamber cast and slug the bore. I did say the theory was close. None of the numbers match... Like I say, it could well be a cartridge we don't see any more. Neat gun though. I'd love to actually see it.
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I guess the only way of narrowing down possibilties is to slug the barrel and make a chamber cast. Or find a second documented pistol.
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Can I slug the barrel myself?
I'm not a firearm expert, but I consider myself quite handy.
We gotta get to the bottom of this! :P
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Slugging requires a lead "Slug" that can be pushed tightly through the barrel from one end to the other. Note how ambiguously I say it so I don't get someone yelling how wrong that way is? It needs to be formed by the push into the barrel and will show you what you need to know. Black lead only...like fishing weights...roofing flashing...can start as a round ball... The chamber casting is a bit harder, ferrosafe is what's used there I think. Other stuff seems to shrink too much for accuracy, these guys may have a better answer for a chamber cast... That would be handy too.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
dttuner
We gotta get to the bottom of this!
Yes, most definitely. The suspense is killing me!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dttuner
Can I slug the barrel myself?
Sure. Nothing to it really. The traditional method is select a round pure lead ball a bit larger than the bore and gently tap it through with a small hammer and wood dowel. Your measurement indicate a .440'' groove diameter so a .445'' should be about right. Grease the ball and drop in the chamber then tap through. However, I would go a different route to prevent the possibility of the breaking the solder joints holding the barrels to the center rib. If possibly concoct a 50/50mix of beeswax and Crisco. As a substitute paraffin wax can be used. Ingredients will need to be heated for mixing and pouring. This is actually an old type of BP bullet lube but works well for chamber casting/bore measuring too. Push a tissue paper wad done from the muzzle a couple inches and fill the remaining space with the 50/50 mix and let solidify. Once solid place the barrels in the freezer for a couple hours and the plug will come right out with a cleaning rod. The same method can be used to cast the chamber but insert the paper wad from the breech end down a little past where the rifling starts.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
vintage hunter
If possibly concoct a 50/50mix of beeswax and Crisco. As a substitute paraffin wax can be used.
Excellent point.
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Interesting read . Can't wait to find out what it shoots . Let's hope it something for which brass is made or can be formed from easily .
Learned something about how these pistols got thier name . I always thought ( no kidding ) that it was from the Indian or British word for " Howdy " . As in the tiger jumps in and says " Howdy " and you say " Howdy " back and shoot him off .
Chris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
vintage hunter
... If possibly concoct a 50/50mix of beeswax and Crisco. As a substitute paraffin wax can be used. Ingredients will need to be heated for mixing and pouring. This is actually an old type of BP bullet lube but works well for chamber casting/bore measuring too. Push a tissue paper wad done from the muzzle a couple inches and fill the remaining space with the 50/50 mix and let solidify. Once solid place the barrels in the freezer for a couple hours and the plug will come right out with a cleaning rod. The same method can be used to cast the chamber but insert the paper wad from the breech end down a little past where the rifling starts.
Golden! This I can do tonight with what I have at home.
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Looks more like one of the Pakistan/Afgan border guns. Doesn't show the quality of a European made firearm. The Howdah pistol a hunter would have been carrying would have been of the same quality as their rifles.
A Black Powder Percussion Howdah Pistol by James Purdey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Johnny Peppers
Doesn't show the quality of a European made firearm.
Very true that. I had no doubt it was from India or some such.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Johnny Peppers
100% agree with you. Always knew it was of poor quality. The finish is beyond rough, and the parts fit together loosely.
Do you have any good links/information on Howdah's from Pakistan/India?
FYi - Slugging the barrel tonight. Getting ready now actually.
Once I freeze, and pop-up the plug, do you want a picture of the calipers measuring the plug?
If so, where/what dimensions?
ty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Johnny Peppers
Looks more like one of the Pakistan/Afgan border guns. Doesn't show the quality of a European made firearm. The Howdah pistol a hunter would have been carrying would have been of the same quality as their rifles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
browningautorifle
Very true that. I had no doubt it was from India or some such.
It is a Belgian gun, it has all the correct proof and inspector marks, it even has the makers trademark. The spangled AS (AS under a star) is a trademark used by SIMONIS Albert, manufacturer of weapons of Liège who was registered with the proofhouse of Liege of 1873 to 1900.
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Most of those pistols were made years ago for the tourist trade by a tribesman with a hammer, screwdriver, file, and used his feet as a vise. My assistant Scoutmaster was a gun collector and had a small collection of those pistols. One was a Martini style action pistol chambered for .303 British. Most were made of iron, and a factory round would probably have destroyed it.
The tribesmen copied all the proofs, so they mean nothing as to the safety of the gun.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
UNPROFOR1994
It is a Belgian gun, it has all the correct proof and inspector marks, it even has the makers trademark. The spangled AS (AS under a star) is a trademark used by SIMONIS Albert, manufacturer of weapons of Liège who was registered with the proofhouse of Liege of 1873 to 1900.
I wouldn't believe any of those marks for a second.
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I'm with UNPRO on this one. I'm convinced it's a Belgian made gun. Abuse and neglect over a long period of time can make anything appear to be of lesser quality than it actually is/was. Normally the Kyber Pass markings are off enough to be able to easily differentiate them from the real thing. The style and font of those on the gun match right up with legit Belgian proofs in a Browning Arms book I have and those shown at Damascus-barrels.com/Belgian proofmarks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
browningautorifle
I wouldn't believe any of those marks for a second.
Well let's just say, for the sake of argument, that I know something about Belgian Proof marks. This is a Belgian gun made by Albert Simonis and proofed at the Liege Proof House.
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Counterfeit money has all the right marks on it too, but they just can't get the quality up there. Take a look at the quality of the pistol, and the caliber is too small for a Howdah pistol.
Take a look at some of these. Some are real, some are reproductions, and some are new manufacture. Is there anything there close to the quality of the pistol in question.
howdah pistol - Google Search
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Johnny Peppers
the caliber is too small for a Howdah pistol
I agree, it isn't a Howdah pistol and I've never said it was. Double barreled pistols like this were made by dozens of different and mostly anonymous gun makers in the Liege area. I've seen and held atleast 5 or 6 of these d.b. pistols in my hands and even shot one.
They were the poor man's revolver or pistol, mostly used as a home defense weapon or carried by a game warden to kill a fox that was trapped in a snare.
All the ones I've seen were smooth bore and that's what makes this one different and interesting to me. Can't wait for the results of the chamber casting and barrel slugging!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Johnny Peppers
Is there anything there close to the quality of the pistol in question.
No Johnny there ain't but even Ray Charles could see those have been better cared for that the one being discussed here. But if you look close you can spot at least one other there with Liege proofs very similar the ones on the gun here.
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Slugging the Barrel, Muzzle:
(breech slugs are in the freezer right now)
Note: My calipers are cheap. Could very well be off by .001"
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cqvs93al-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...4dfasrzf-1.jpg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Johnny Peppers
One was a Martini style action pistol chambered for .303 British
From= Forgotten Weapons on Youtube.
Khyber Pass Martini Pistol at RIA - YouTube
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Don't know what the heck I'd do with it but I would like to have one of those M-H pistols. They just look neat.
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I'd love to have a full collection of these sort of guns. This one included, for sure. I'd be trying brass straight walled cartridges in it until I found something that was a bit bigger than the common 410 shotgun and could be found at a gunshow...cast a conical bullet and probably paper wrap it. Load with a Pyrodex load, very light, some Dacron wad over top...and a large pistol primer. I should think that would work fine. Bullets are available in such a wide range of sizes, I'll bet a pistol bullet for black powder use could be found.
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So at least both bores and breeches are constant and the same...don't know what cartridge could be used. I used Fiocci 28 ga shotgun shells in .577 Snider before I could get brass cartridges. Maybe a .410 shotgun shell as an expedient...still don't know what bullet.
But I suppose you have no intention of shooting it? Maybe I'm the only one here that would...?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
browningautorifle
Maybe I'm the only one here that would...?
I'd have to shoot it too Jim if it were mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
browningautorifle
still don't know what bullet
How about a RB of suitable diameter seated against the rifling followed by a .444 Marlin case filled with pyrodex and a card wad for a mouth seal?
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.44 S&W Russian?
Try a .44 S&W Russian cartridge!
Or, in case you have to adapt another .44 case:
Case length 0.970"*
Case diameter 0.457"
Rim diameter 0.515"
Bullet diameter 0.430"
Bullet weight: 200-260 gns. Pure to fairly-soft lead. I use 5% tin.**
Total cartridge length 1.430"
The S&W Russian was very popular at the time, and, just in case you feel like loading and firing a few,
NO nitro!
NO duplex loads!***
-BLACK POWDER ONLY!
*There may be a slight step about 1" in from the recoil shield/face.
** No harder. The bullet slugs up a bit in the chamber, even more when it hits the forcing cone/throat, and is then swaged down to fit the rifling. Bullets that are too hard will not obturate, thus leading to WORSE performance than with soft bullets.
*** The rate of onset with nitro is too high for the old bangers. The pressure does not build linearly, but at an increasing rate as more powder starts to burn. This causes an "acceleration of the acceleration" (rate of onset) that can not only bulge but shatter the steel. Non-scientifically: the pressure builds up much faster than the bullet can get out of the chamber and relieve the pressure spike.
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@dttuner: Can you give your measurements in mm too? I see you can change the settings to mm on your tool.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
UNPROFOR1994
@dttuner: Can you give your measurements in mm too? I see you can change the settings to mm on your tool.
0.468" = 11.88mm
If you want to make up trial loads: use BP, Swiss No2 (FFFg)
But first check the operation of the barrel catch - it looks very worn to me.
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@Peter Chadwick: I was thinking about one of the old 11mm revolver calibers too. But the depth (2,238) of the chamber is not correct. Maybe the chamber was changed at one point?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
UNPROFOR1994
@Peter Chadwick: I was thinking about one of the old 11mm revolver calibers too. But the depth (2,238) of the chamber is not correct. Maybe the chamber was changed at one point?
Wow! 2.238" = 56.8mm.
That's a real rifle-cartridge length. Far too long for a pistol.
BTW, where does it say that the chamber depth is 2.238" - I can't see it?
However, there may be some uncertainty as too where the chamber proper stops, and where a possibly burnt-out throat begins. From the photos, the chambers do not seem to be well-defined.
Dttuner, I suggest you take a piece of wood dowelling turned down to 0.46"/11.7mm and see how far you can insert it into the chamber.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Patrick Chadwick
Wow! 2.238" = 56.8mm.
That's a real rifle-cartridge length. Far too long for a pistol.
BTW, where does it say that the chamber depth is 2.238" - I can't see it?
Look at the pictures in post #15 by dttuner.
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@dttuner: I was wrong about the gun maker Albert Simonis, I thought your gun had a spangled AS marking but it's a spangled AC marking.
That is not the marking of Simonis but a post 1877 controllers countermark of the Liëge proof house.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
UNPROFOR1994
Look at the pictures in post #15 by dttuner.
I measured the chamber using my caliber.
From the inside "lip" of the chamber, where the rifling begins, to the breach face = 2.270 inches.
(not sure how I got 2.38 before. Getting better at my caliper skills i guess)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
UNPROFOR1994
@dttuner: I was wrong about the gun maker Albert Simonis, I thought your gun had a spangled AS marking but it's a spangled AC marking.
That is not the marking of Simonis but a post 1877 controllers countermark of the Liëge proof house.
What significance does that have? What is a "countermark?"
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Hey guys, I found a link to Alan Daubresse's website. This guy is a published expert on Belgian firearms and proof marks.
Just sent him an email, so let's see what he says!
Website is very simple, and oldschool, but no malware for me.
Photos d'armes de collection
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Looking at the breech photo in post 15 (thanks UNPROFOR1994), it looks as if it was brutally reamed out with a builder's drill! So we must reckon that the original chambering was a bit smaller.
Looking at the rim of the ACP case in post 20 and using it as a reference to scale up the recess in the breech, the original case had a rim with a MAXIMUM 14mm (0.55") diameter. Something around 13mm +/- ?
Now to look for some plausible cases...
One candidate is the German pistol cartridge for the "Reichsrevolver". Designation (there are several alternatives) 10.6x25R. With a bullet diameter of 10.92mm (nominal).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
dttuner
Just sent him an email, so let's see what he says!
I'm pretty sure he will confirm that it is a Belgian gun, my spangled AC and proof markings information comes out off his book. :D
Maybe he can give some more information about the maker by looking at the style of the d.b. pistol.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Patrick Chadwick
it looks as if it was brutally reamed out with a builder's drill! So we must reckon that the original chambering was a bit smaller.
I think it was made for the European market and the original caliber was one off the popular European 11 mm's at the time like 11 mm French, 11 mm German, .44 S&W Russian or .44 webley.
And at some point one of the previous owners had the chamber reamed out so that the gun could shoot .410 shotgun cartidges.
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No need to argue over this. The proofs look genuine-enough Belgian proofs for me, and I have seen several pistols like this on the market here in Germany. As already pointed out - nothing to do with tigers, just a cheaper alternative to a real revolver for situations where one shot is not enough.
And the best candidate I can find for the chamber is....
... the 11.3x36R Gasser-Montenegro. A very hefty pistol cartridge indeed - 44 to 47mm OAL depending on the bullet and case version - longer than a 45 Colt, and not something which you would like to use for a target shooting competition. But possibly the best "man-stopper" of its vintage. An awful lot of "oomph" in that case! After repelling the assailant you probably needed a visit to the physio to have your wrist treated.
Anything longer than the Gasser would seem to be a carbine cartridge*, and hardly believable for a handgun - although I once saw a revolver chambered for the Snider cartridge!
However, the Gasser case has a rim diameter of about 14.2mm. Dttuner, could you please use your calipers to measure the INSIDE diameter of the rim recess, to see if a 14.2mm rim would fit?
*In fact, the long Gasser has similar dimensions to the cartridge for the M1867 Werndl carbine. Surely enough for anybody's wrist?**
** In 1882 it was replaced by a shorter version, and the remaining army stocks were sold to Montenegro. Hence the commonly used name.
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"And at some point one of the previous owners had the chamber reamed out so that the gun could shoot .410 shotgun cartidges."
Also a very plausible possibility. In fact, considering the extraordinary chamber length, the most likely.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
UNPROFOR1994
I'm pretty sure he will confirm that it is a Belgian gun, my spangled AC and proof markings information comes out off his book. :D
Maybe he can give some more information about the maker by looking at the style of the d.b. pistol.
So, unfortunately, the guy is not the most pleasant individual.
Basically 4-5 emails back-n-forth, filled with him using lots of exclamation points, and repeatedly trying to get me to buy his book. Considering all the emails written, he could have wrote me a one-liner including some helpful information.
I even quoted all the findings you guys put together in this thread, to try and make him understand I was looking for confirmation, or additional detail.
Disappointing.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
dttuner
So, unfortunately, the guy is not the most pleasant individual.
Basically 4-5 emails back-n-forth, filled with him using lots of exclamation points, and repeatedly trying to get me to buy his book. Considering all the emails written, he could have wrote me a one-liner including some helpful information.
I even quoted all the findings you guys put together in this thread, to try and make him understand I was looking for confirmation, or additional detail.
Disappointing.
Oh yeah, and his book is $30, but he wants to charge $45 for shipping...
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Can you not find the book on line somewhere?
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Well, it is what it is and it isn't what it isn't. I've shared all the information I can give you. In my opinon it is not a Howdah pistol but a Belgian d.b. pistol (the poor man's revolver) with all the correct Belgian proof and inspector marks, made by one of the many anonymous gun makers (no makers mark on the gun) in the Liëge area at the end of the 19th or the beginning of the 20th century. Originally it was chambered in one of the popular pre W.W.I 11mm/.44 calibers of the time.
If you try shooting it, take pictures or make a video and share them with us please. Be careful and don't blow it up!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
UNPROFOR1994
Well, it is what it is and it isn't what it isn't. I've shared all the information I can give you. In my opinon it is not a Howdah pistol but a Belgian d.b. pistol (the poor man's revolver) with all the correct Belgian proof and inspector marks, made by one of the many anonymous gun makers (no makers mark on the gun) in the Liëge area at the end of the 19th or the beginning of the 20th century. Originally it was chambered in one of the popular pre W.W.I 11mm/.44 calibers of the time.
If you try shooting it, take pictures or make a video and share them with us please. Be careful and don't blow it up!
Truth is, the only way I would shoot this thing is after many years of experience reloading, or with the step-by-step assistance from someone as knowledgable about reloading as you folks are. For now, she will remain a family treasure / wall hanger.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
dttuner
she will remain a family treasure / wall hanger.
I'm sure she will make a great conversation piece when you have visitors and they see this d.b. pistol hanging on the wall. If only she could talk...
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@dttuner: I've been looking into these d.b. pistols. It seems that most of them are marked under the grips. Did you ever remove them? Are there any markings?
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Seems he was last on in March...maybe gone now.
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Sorry for taking so long to respond. Kinda forgot about this thread, and stopped perusing milsurps for awhile.
Tomorrow, if I have time and remember, I'll remove the grips to look for markings.
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In my opinion the original caliber was the .450 Adams cartridge, can't help you with the maker.
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Found this interesting description about another Belgian Double Barrel pistol, almost identical to mine.
Thanks to UNPROFOR1994 for finding the source.
"2 SHOTS WILL DO: South America, especially Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay, was the destination of most 2-barrel pistols made in Europe in the second half of the 19th Century. There is not much written about these unique pistols that were manufactured for both center-fire and pinfire cartridges. Evidently the previous 2-barrel flintlock and 2-barrel percussion pistols were so appreciated by small arms users, that when the new metallic cartridges appeared folks just kept asking for two-barreled pieces (“two shots will do, thank you”). There is no doubt that the only large market in the world for these odd pistols was South America. Even the widespread use of the mainstay 6-shooters and the later semi-auto pistols didn’t persuade an important minority of gun-owners to move over to the more modern contraptions until well into the 20th century. A few years ago we sold a top-break, center-fire, two-barreled pistol (a shorter version of this one) that the owner had used right up into 2005 for shooting carpinchos (basically 50 pound rats) using the .450 Adams cartridge - of course, over several decades he had had to use .45 Long Colt brass cut down to .450 length.
THIS PISTOL, SPECS AND CONDITION: The barrels measure 7-7/16 inches (190mm), and the pistol’s overall length is 11-1/2 inches (318mm). For size comparison we have shown it with a Smith & Wesson 1st Model DA Revolver in .44 Russian – NOTE: the S&W is not for sale with this auction. Both actions work well with a half-cock safety position, and there is a separate safety mechanism between the hammers; when this safety mechanism is moved forward (only when the hammers are in the half-cock position) it is impossible to fire the gun. Lock up is fairly tight with a bit of movement of the barrel assembly. The top-break mechanism works well. The extractor functions as designed. There is good rifling with a few light to moderate pits especially towards the front of the two bores. The original nickel is about 40% with areas of rust but no noticeable pitting. The original walnut grips are in good condition showing the entire diamond pattern on the grip area and a carved section at the top on each side.
MARKS AND STAMPS: On the action at the rear of the barrels: 450. On the left frame under the grip: B. On the bottom of the barrels: crown over R (1894 rifled bore punch), star over O (this must be an 1877 Inspector’s mark, but it is not on any list we know), the “Little Tower” 1853 Inspection punch, star over B (1877 Inspector’s mark, note: there is a letter L stamped beside both of these punches, it appears to be added later and we do not know its significance), the 1852 Black Powder mark, the post-1894 Liege proof.
THE .450 ADAMS CARTRIDGE: The .450, also known as the .450 Revolver or the .450 Colt, is a cartridge that was originally used in converted percussion Beaumont-Adams revolvers in the early 1870s. It became the British Army’s first centerfire round. It carried a 225 grain bullet and developed a velocity of about 650 fps. It was similar in ballistics to the .44 Russian cartridge. The .450 was the forerunner of the .455 Webley cartridge, and it was in use in South America right up into the 20th century. All .450 handguns can shoot reloads made from cut-down cases of the 45 Long Colt or the British .455. Fiocchi occasionally produces a run of the .450 cartridge, although they do not seem to be available right now:
CAN THIS PISTOL BE FIRED? This pistol carries the 1894 Liege proof on the bottom of the barrels; the Liege proof was the absolute best proof in Europe in the 19th century. Several small arms manufacturers from Great Britain and France, especially, sent their finished guns to Belgium just for this proof. Each chamber had to be proofed or proved by firing four shots with a double load. No junk ever got past that proof. If a Liege-proofed gun is in good mechanical condition it can usually be fired today with the black powder loads for which it was designed. Of course we recommend that you get this pistol examined by a certified gunsmith before ever firing it."
