Late Uncles Inland M1 Carbine. Still teaching my boys.

My late Uncle, who served in WW2, purchased this Inland M1 Carbine directly from the Government, pre CMP, for approximately $34. His son was went with him to take delivery of the M1 at the train depot. Cuz was 10 at the time. Fast forward to 2016 and cuz lends me the carbine so my then 10 year old No. 3 son could learn to shoot. Now we are in 2023 and my No. 4 son is 8 YO and once again he is learning to shoot with the same M1 carbine. I am sharing pictures here in hopes someone can clue me in on what the worth of this old family heirloom might be, not that it would ever get sold.
Best I can tell, it’s all original. Let me know if more photos are needed.
Would changing original springs out for general shooting be a good idea?
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Really nice rifle!!! It is not all original since it appears to have the post-war refurbishments installed. It is in terrific shape and in California that is easily $1,500. Of course, it sounds like the sentimental value is off the scale for you and your family so I have a feeling your grandkids are going to learn to shoot with that rifle!

Thanks! Yes this rifle will be in the family for a long time hence. Still shoots great.

So please educate me. What would be the post war enhancements you mentioned?
And should I get new springs for shooting?

Another question. I also have maybe a dozen original 15 round magazines that are heavily rusted. Any good way to remove the rust without damaging any remaining finish?
I have a couple gallons of Evaporust. Would that be an option or would it remove the bluing?

If the carbine shoots and functions as it should then leave the springs alone.
As far as the upgrades Singer B mentioned. 1st off your stock has a Rock Island Arsenal rebuild stamp which indicates a post war rebuild. It has an Underwood barrel, Inland used Inland barrels. It originally would have had a push safety and a type 2 barrel band, you have a flip safety and a type 3 barrel band.
I am assuming that your serial is 5171??? and not 5171??.

Value depends a lot on where you are. The lowest I would put on it is $1300. And in a few areas, it could go for as high as $1600

To add to W5USMC, your rifle has the repalcement adjustable rear sight. Inland made more M1 carbines than any other manufacturer so they don't have much of a "rarity" value as far as M1 carbines go. I also agree with him reference the springs. If the gun works fine, then let it be!

Actually, believe his rear sight is possibly correct. There was mixed use of all the rear sights in this serial # block and the stamped I.R.CO. 7160060 sight was used by Inland starting somewhere around 5131xxx.

If they are a blued finished then stainless steel wool and (I mean stainless not the steel wool) can of WD40 or RP7 spray over the mag then rub with the Stainless steel wool rag it off and repeat.
I have never tried this method on Parked actions or mags but it works well on blued parts and wont remove the bluing, so I suggest if you do do it in a small inconspicuous spot and see result.
(An old WWII armourer told me this method.) RIP Jack McCormack a good friend.

Otherwise someone else may have a method for parked mags.

Don't try the soap filled stainless ones either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by W5USMC

Actually, believe his rear sight is possibly correct. There was mixed use of all the rear sights in this serial # block and the stamped I.R.CO. 7160060 sight was used by Inland starting somewhere around 5131xxx.

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Thank you, I didn't know that!

Here's another Inland, fairly early in the 5M range with the same Type 3 rear sight. This one hit pretty much right on for elevation at 25 yards with the aperture set in the lowest position. Your sight must be set at 200-250? If it hits point of aim at close range with that setting, it likely means that the front sight is likely not the original - or maybe it originally had a Type 1 leaf rear sight and never got targeted after being changed. Move your windage adjustment all the way to one side to see if the original stake marks for the sight look close to what my picture shows. This one of mine had some other incorrect parts, but no rebuild marks on the stock. The barrel was an Inland dated 8-44. You've got a nice carbine there! - Bob

Attachment 133467Attachment 133466Attachment 133465

I can't find that Oiler in any of my books. USGI or Import part ?? :)

Similar to this one from Ethiopia Charlie! Stop taking naps and you would know these things!:dancingbanana:

Wayne, I never was much for naps except in school. I've been busy (between rains) trying to get ready for Winter. Rule of thumb: Ready for Winter by Halloween and ready for Spring by April Fools day.

OP's oiler looks like Southern Hard Pine to me from what little I can see. Think that Carbine could have been a DCM or NRA release?
One of my early carbines came with a cut off piece of brass colored curtain rod for a oiler. I hadn't noticed yet but Marcus seen it right away and gave me crap about it. I should have saved and Auctioned as 'Experimental' Sling Holding Device. It looked like it was from a old rod :D Also might have worked as a Trigger spring tool.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

I've been busy (between rains) trying to get ready for Winter.

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Wish we had some rain here, but I also have been trying to get ready for winter and hunting season.

I wonder how many of us had their first experience with firearms with a milsurp? The very first firearm I ever shot was a Sht .22 MkIV* at the grand old age of 6 years old.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by W5USMC

If the carbine shoots and functions as it should then leave the springs alone.
As far as the upgrades Singer B mentioned. 1st off your stock has a Rock Island Arsenal rebuild stamp which indicates a post war rebuild. It has an Underwood barrel, Inland used Inland barrels. It originally would have had a push safety and a type 2 barrel band, you have a flip safety and a type 3 barrel band.
I am assuming that your serial is 5171??? and not 5171??.

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Yes. 5171???
I do appreciate all the valuable information.

I have a number of LC stamped FMJ ammo with various dates. Some are 67 and 51 dated. Do I need to worry about any being corrosive? I read some where all US Carbine ammo is non corrosive.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

I can't find that Oiler in any of my books. USGI or Import part ?? :)

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LOL. That’s an experimental pine sap oiler, or so my cousin says?. How hard would it be to acquire a correct original boiler for that rear sling slot?

---------- Post added at 03:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:44 PM ----------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

Wayne, I never was much for naps except in school. I've been busy (between rains) trying to get ready for Winter. Rule of thumb: Ready for Winter by Halloween and ready for Spring by April Fools day.

OP's oiler looks like Southern Hard Pine to me from what little I can see. Think that Carbine could have been a DCM or NRA release?
One of my early carbines came with a cut off piece of brass colored curtain rod for a oiler. I hadn't noticed yet but Marcus seen it right away and gave me crap about it. I should have saved and Auctioned as 'Experimental' Sling Holding Device. It looked like it was from a old rod :D Also might have worked as a Trigger spring tool.

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I sure wished my cousin still had the original paperwork for the rifle. He says he believes it may have accidentally gone into a burn barrel one day when he was cleaning out his shop. Now that’s a shame. I’ve only got his word-of-mouth testimony about its origins. Was DCM active in 68? That’s when my uncle purchased the gun along with a Peruvian small ring Mauser and 3006. My cousin let that get corroded from corrosive ammo one time and hasn’t cleaned it. It’s really sad. I may still get it from him and try and clean it up best I can .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KneverKnew

I have a number of LC stamped FMJ ammo with various dates. Some are 67 and 51 dated. Do I need to worry about any being corrosive? I read some where all US Carbine ammo is non corrosive.

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Your ammo is fine, shoot away! You are correct no USGI carbine ammo was corrosive. There is, however, some Chinese made ammo head stamped LC 52 that is corrosive and usually comes in a box marked 7.62MM LC.

Look what my cousin found in another shed. Approximately 800+ rounds. Anyone know the origins of this ammo? Labels look French. Corrosive? Safe?
The green boxes are apparently commercial reloads. Warning says not for use in cast receivers. Is that the case with these USGI carbines?
Looks like ones on stripper clips from green bandoleer say LC 52. Possibly the Chinese? How would I tell?

Attachment 133477Attachment 133478Attachment 133479Attachment 133480

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KneverKnew

Any good way to remove the rust without damaging any remaining finish?

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no to the evaporust idea. that will remove all the finish.
boil them in plan old water, for 30 min. to an hour, depending on how deep the rust is. Take em out of the pot, let dry, then take some clean 0000 steel wool and rub off any excess black or red dust. If there is still active rust, boil again. Boiling converts the red oxide to black oxide, which is what bluing is. Watch some videos on slow rust bluing, or watch Mark Novak's Anvil channel to see it in action. When you are done, soak in kerosene or motor oil with no detergents.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KneverKnew

Looks like ones on stripper clips from green bandoleer say LC 52. Possibly the Chinese?

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The Chinese ammo is brand new, those are WW2 surplus Twin Cities. Chinese is Lake City. As for the French, remember they used M1A1 carbines for years so they had the ammo made (1950).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KneverKnew

Labels look French. Corrosive? Safe?

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Yes, those boxes are French and also likely corrosive, would not shoot it. The one round pictured with the TW 43 head stamp is interesting, TW is for Twin Cities Ordnance Plant but I personally was not aware that this plant produced carbine ammo during WWII, and it is not listed in any of the Ruth books, so I would say the TW ammo may have some collector value. Post a picture of your LC 52 but I do not believe that the Chinese LC 52 ever came on stripper clips, do you have any of the bandoleers? See the below links for some more info.

LC 52 - The Carbine Collector's Club - Page 1

https://forums.thecmp.org/forum/cmp-...0-carbine-ammo

Edit to add: Sorry I was typing when Jim above was posting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KneverKnew

How hard would it be to acquire a correct original boiler for that rear sling slot?

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PM me your address and I will mail you an oiler.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by W5USMC

Yes, those boxes are French and also likely corrosive, would not shoot it.

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I still don't get the fear of corrosive, just clean appropriately after and all will be well. Problems arise if daily cleaning isn't done. The troops were out for days or weeks at end and the corrosive salts drew moisture to rust the barrel.

Jim, you are likely correct, but I think it is more of an issue with the gas system on the carbine and getting it cleaned properly after shooting corrosive ammo. Don't know 1st hand because I have never shot the corrosive stuff through a carbine. I have shot plenty through my SKS with no issues. As some have mentioned in the CMP link I posted above they have shot it and they say they have not had any issues, lots of different opinions.

Went to the range with the inland carbine and my 8 year old son. Used some
Of the milsurp ammo at 50 yards. Aiming at 6 o’clock. My boy out shot me. ?
The printed target was mine. Big black dot was my sons. Minus his flyer he got a great group.
Attachment 133490Attachment 133489

Looks good! Is the rear sight still set for 200 or 250 yds ? I have an older brother who has shot quite a bit of corrosive Chinese ammo through his Inland with no problems, but has been used to shooting WWII GI 30-06 in his Springfields since the mid 50's - also spent 20 yrs in the Army. I agree with Wayne about the gas system concerns on the carbines and that the French stuff would be a "no-no". - Bob

To add to the excitement here,

Did anyone know that it was Federal Cartridge Corp. that produced the ammunition at the Twin Cities Ordinance Plant (TCOP) renamed Twin Cities Arsenal in 1946 and then in 1963, the Twin Cities Army Ammunition Plant. The contract for Federal Cartridge estimated to be worth $87 million. Construction of the $30 million plant began in August, 1941. Minnesota Gov. Harold Stassen was at the groundbreaking dedication ceremony in August, 1941. Charles Horn, president of Federal Cartridge Corp., also attended and visited periodically. The plant was in full operation by 1942 when President Franklin D. Roosevelt toured the plant. It took 26 to 27 working days for a hunk of brass to become a finished loaded cartridge. Once completed, bullets were tested on a plant firing range.

In November 1942 tragedy struck when Alexander P. Nelson, 67, was killed in his yard by a ricocheting bullet from the plant. Nelson Road just off Lexington Avenue is named in his memory.

In 1944 it began overhauling old .30- and .50-caliber ammunition by the use of machines that disassembled them into their components.

The former Twin Cities Army Ammunition Plant (TCAAP) was once home to 48 farming families. The U.S. Army searched for and found the Arden Hills site as a viable place to build a new ordinance plant for production of small-caliber ammunition. The St. Paul Pioneer Press Sept. 11, 1940, noted that the purchase price of $133,685 would be divided among various land owners. All land had to be vacated within a couple of months, which meant farmers had to abandon unharvested fields.

Within 15 months of groundbreaking, the Army had built 323 buildings, 21.4 miles of water lines, 21.7 miles of roads, 15.6 miles of railroad track, 31.3 miles of sewer lines, 14.1 miles of gas lines, 16.8 miles of steam lines, 28.9 miles of electric wires and 11.1 miles of telephone lines. In 1941 a Fort Snelling water tower was dismantled, transported and reassembled on a hill near what was to be known as the Twin Cities Ordinance Plant (TCOP).

In between all the construction, soldiers harvested the crops that were growing on the property, including potatoes, garden vegetables, apples, hay and grain. The harvested fruits and vegetables were transported to Fort Snelling for use by military personnel while the grain and hay were sold via sealed bid.

The site had a failed bid for the new home for the Minnesota Vikings. It was on the List of Super Fund Sites but now Deleted from National Priorities List.

Maybe this will add a little history to your TW rounds

:cheers:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by USGI

Looks good! Is the rear sight still set for 200 or 250 yds ? I have an older brother who has shot quite a bit of corrosive Chinese ammo through his Inland with no problems, but has been used to shooting WWII GI 30-06 in his Springfields since the mid 50's - also spent 20 yrs in the Army. I agree with Wayne about the gas system concerns on the carbines and that the French stuff would be a "no-no". - Bob

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The site was set to 100. I tried shooting first at the lowest setting which is all the way down just below the 100 but it kept popping back up to the 100 every time I shot. Even at 50 yards the 100 sites was giving me Impact 2 low or so from point of aim.

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So the fridge corrosive ammo should be fine to shoot as long as I do a thorough proper cleaning of the bore and gas system?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KneverKnew

So the fridge corrosive ammo should be fine to shoot as long as I do a thorough proper cleaning of the bore and gas system?

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'Fridge-French' (?)

There's a War Department Basic Field Manual for the M1 Carbine dated May 20, 1942. FM23_7 that shows a Trigger housing with parts that were never used like a Hammer stop and Grooved rear Trigger housing lug. Anyway in one section on cleaning the barrel they go thru the steps of using water. I've often thought this might have been incase the use of Corrosive Ammo was used, even thou it's not mentioned. IIRC it's the only Carbine Field Manual I've seen that mentions water for the bore, it is the earliest. The steps when you read them would have no other explanation on why to use water. I'll copy/paste part of that section:

From FM23_7 https://photos.imageevent.com/badger...237/FM23-7.pdf

under CARE AND CLEANING scroll down to 15 AFTER FIRING:
The bores of all carbines must be thoroughly cleaned by the evening of the day on which they are fired. They should be cleaned in the same manner for the
next three days. CAUTION: Under no circumstances will
metal fouling solution be used in the carbine.
a. Cleaning immediately after firing, or as soon as possible.-For this purpose water must be used; warm water is
good, but warm, soapy water is better. Hold the carbine
bottom side up, so that no water will enter the gas port.
Run several wet patches through the bore. Remove the
patch section from the cleaning rod, substitute the brush,
and work this back and forth through the bore several times.
Care should be used to see that the brush goes all the way
through the bore before the direction is reversed. Detach
the brush and run several wet patches through the bore,
removing them from the breech end. Follow this with dry
patches until the patches come out clean and dry. Saturate
a patch in light preservative lubricating oil and push it
through the bore, holding the rifle, top side up, so that some
of the oil will flow into the gas port. CAUTION: In cleaning
the bore, be careful not to foul the cleaning patch in the
gas port. b. Complete cleaning.-This cleaning should be done as soon
as possible after that described in a above. If the carbine
is to be fired the next day proceed as in paragraph 14. If
the carbine is not to be fired in the next few days repeat procedure in a above for 3 days.

Corrosive ammo isn't the problem, not cleaning properly after shooting corrosive ammo is the problem.

Pictures of milsurp case heads we shot in the carbine yesterday. I think they are all non corrosive. My old question is about the LC 52. How can you tell if ammo with that head stamp is genuine LC or from China?
If there is even a doubt as to corrosiveness, I will clean with water.
Attachment 133495

I will upload pictures of the other milsurp case heads I have for verification as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KneverKnew

How can you tell if ammo with that head stamp is genuine LC or from China?

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Did you check out the Carbine Club link that I posted earlier? It discusses the differences between the legit Lake City and the Chinese ammo.

LC 52 - The Carbine Collector's Club - Page 1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by W5USMC

Did you check out the Carbine Club link that I posted earlier? It discusses the differences between the legit Lake City and the Chinese ammo.

LC 52 - The Carbine Collector's Club - Page 1

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I will check it out. Thanks.

Various other headstamps I’ve found in the bag my cuz gave me.

LC43, EC43
LC51
LC52, WRA52
LC54
LC67
RA55

And big question mark on these, Chinese?
VE 1-61 N 7.62
VE 2-63 S 7.62
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Quote:

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Originally Posted by KneverKnew

My old question is about the LC 52. How can you tell if ammo with that head stamp is genuine LC or from China?

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Pull a bullet and look at the flash hole, the Chinese is berdan with two holes and USA ammo is Boxer with one. I think the Chinese is only LC 52. Anyone seen another year of manufacture stamp?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I think the Chinese is only LC 52. Anyone seen another year of manufacture stamp?

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I haven't, only LC 52 reported that I know of.
Note the Larger Extractor Groove on the Chinese LC 52, easiest way to tell IMO.

Based on the pictures you provided above I don’t believe any of my LC 52 are Chinese. That was just a quick look over. I will examine more closely later.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KneverKnew

And big question mark on these, Chinese?
VE 1-61 N 7.62
VE 2-63 S 7.62

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VE is Cartoucherie de Valence, Valence, France

Quote:

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Originally Posted by W5USMC

VE is Cartoucherie de Valence, Valence, France

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So that would be corrosive?

Yes, likely corrosive. I have read that there are 2 types of French ammo corrosive and noncorrosive. Think this is mentioned in the cmp thread link I posted in post #22.

I found Korean M1 Carbine ammo for sale, 1080 rounds for $300. Not sure if that is typical pricing or not. Info says brass cased boxer primed. I am assuming that would be non corrosive. Right? Sound like a decent buy?

Attachment 133521

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KneverKnew

I found Korean M1 Carbine ammo for sale, 1080 rounds for $300.

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The Korean surplus ammo is great ammo but that is a SCAM website. Be careful! Read the link below.

https://b34da70920f9-006155.vbulleti...ition?t=307762

Thank you.

French made Carbine ammo with both Berdan and Boxer Primers. I've ran across some information but need time to put it together.

@ Kneverknew,
Can you pull a bullet on one of your early 60-61 VE rounds or if you have the same in empty cases. Look inside the case for 2 Flash holes in the bottom. BAR mentioned this to you to check the LC 52 to see if it was Chinese/Berdan primed earlier.

Attached picture is a Chinese LC 52 USGI Bob posted that I saved as a example.

See link below concerning French carbine ammo. No idea how credible the info is but it was posted in the CMP tread from post #22.

frenchcarb.htm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

Attached picture is a Chinese LC 52 USGI Bob posted that I saved as a example.

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Here's a better one shown with the primer removed. - Bob

Attachment 133567

Looking around for spam cans of US production carbine ammo. Is WCC M1 ball ammo in 600 round spam can good as the LC ammo? All non corrosive?
What is a reasonable going price for something like this?

Yep. VE headstamps are berdan.
Attachment 133568
My guess is these came out of the can of French ammo. Won’t know for sure until I pick them up from my cuz and compare.
I will most likely save the French for zombies. Trying to find US surplus (LC, WCC, etc. ) to shoot and reload.

My cuz says there are about 80 rounds missing from the French can. If he or his dad shot any, they must have done a good cleaning on the gun cause
I don’t see any signs of corrosive ammo damage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KneverKnew

If he or his dad shot any, they must have done a good cleaning on the gun cause
I don’t see any signs of corrosive ammo damage.

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More likely it's not corrosive.

Bu if the French stuff is berdan, wouldn’t that be corrosive from back in the 60’s

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KneverKnew

Is WCC M1 ball ammo in 600 round spam can good as the LC ammo? All non corrosive?

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WCC is Western Cartridge Company. All USGI ammo was loaded to the same specs. All USGI ammo is non corrosive. You will pay a premium price for a sealed spam can of any USGI due to collector value. If you want shooting ammo then why not look at commercial ammo, there are some decent prices on PPU (Prvi Partizan) ammo from a number of venders right now according to ammo seek.

https://ammoseek.com/ammo/30-carbine

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KneverKnew

wouldn’t that be corrosive from back in the 60’s

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According to the link it's a crapshoot as to yes or no. You say no trace of rust, they shot that ammo in that carbine? Then they either cleaned it to avoid rust which you can do too or it isn't corrosive.

As Wayne is suggesting why not just shoot stuff you aren't guessing about or reload your own which is simple enough. Those loads are listed on this site, you don't even have to experiment.

Pulled gun completely apart and everything looks great. Going to lube with lubriplate.

The issue with Corrosive is not so much the barrel but the piston system. The castle nut is staked at the factory, usually a big stake mark. It is not made to remove and replace. The threads are damaged by the staking. it is easy to cross thread that plug starting it in a damaged by staking socket. If it gets really stuck the wrecked threads can ruin a perfectly good barrel. The piston is made of a material that looks rust resistant but the area behind and the short section from the barrel into the piston are there to rust.

Removing that castle nut repeatedly and not re-staking can just make the problem worse.
These are very small 5lb rifles that are not built for the long haul like a K98 or Garand. Why risk a new barrel over a few dollars worth of foreign ammo? Beyond that I would not want to use 70+ year old Chinese anything, French being a close second. I don't know if you've ever seen a corroded pitted barrel, I have and it makes you want to cry because the damage is permanent.

Thoughts and guidance concerning piston nut removal changed through the years. See below link.
Pistn Nut Staking - The Carbine Collector's Club

Wayne: Happy Birthday tomorrow.

I think that anyone who removes the piston as a matter of course should obtain a new castle nut. I bought one just in case I needed it. I removed the piston on my 5.6 Win when I first obtained it. It was well staked and it made me very wary of making it a practice. The most interesting thing about the piston is that it usually comes out clean as a whistle. No carbon, no debris nothing.
D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

Wayne: Happy Birthday tomorrow.

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Thanks David! I will definitely have a few drinks to celebrate.

My cousin has now handed me the FN model 1935 Peruvian short rifle (Mauser) his dad purchased from the government at the same time he got the inland carbine back in 1968. I’m creating a new post for it.
Attachment 133816

Here is the link to the Peruvian Mauser post.
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....839#post533839