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He's OK, shooter is dead, one rally attendee killed, possibly two others wounded. Trump rushed to the Hospital with blood coming from his right ear and running down his face. Pumped his fist to the crowd as the Secret Service pushed him to the vehicle.
This is obviously horrific. I'm sitting by my TV, as I did when JFK and RFK were killed.
Please, let's keep this non-political so that the conversation can happen. Thank you.
Bob
Yeah, now we just wait. It is aggravating that they won't release information as they have it and allow the media and everyone else to just guess about everything. Eric Trump says his Dad is "The toughest guy I ever met". But that doesn't really tell us much. They are now saying that the PA State Police are saying a bullet hit the teleprompter and glass is what struck the President. Prior to this they had been saying Trump was grazed by a bullet. First a man's wife was killed, then it is a man that was killed. They just don't know.
I've seen a video of a guy in urban camo lying still (dead?) on a metal roof (barn) and reports that it was a AR style rifle from outside the rally.
Trump says he heard a wizzing sound and felt the bullet go through his ear.
I'm looking at the Google satellite photo of the site. The series of rooftops from which the shots came is fairly long so the range looks to be from 200 to 350 yards. The body of the shooter was behind the peak of one of those roofs so he shot from a defilated position on the former president's right. You can see the people at the top of the bleachers behind the podium looking that way when they get back up. Before they got former president Trump up, the call came in, "shooter down, shooter down," so it was that quick. There are pics of the counter-sniper team who apparently took the sniper out and they appear to be after the shot.
Bob
Do you think that the reports of a "2nd shooter" were actually a member of the counter sniper team?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Womack
I really don't know. I've got a friend who went onto a rooftop near a Vice President Bush appearance who looked down at his chest and saw the laser beam from the Secret Service counter-terrorist sniper. They didn't take the shot and my friend expeditiously left the roof.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
Bob
I've done a lot of precision rifle shooting, and know a lot of so-called snipers. NONE of them use a laser sight for "work." That **** is for the movies.
Now, can I see those guys having a laser pointer handy to make their presence known? Yeah.
They identified the guy as Thomas Matthew Crooks from a town about an hour away from the rally. He was 20, registered as a Republican but donated to Democrat causes. I've seen a close-up photo of the shooter dead on the roof, looks older than 20. Long hair, goatee.
Zero answers to anything yet. I've also watched a video of Trump being shot with two snipers on the roof top above and behind him aiming at this guy but not taking him out until shots were fired. So they knew he was there and did nothing. They guy they attribute to shooting him actually seems to pull back from his rifle right before Trump was hit. I'm thinking it was the second guy that actually took the shot.
140 yards away, police were notified there was a guy on the roof but obviously nothing done until he fired the shots, witnesses watched him crawl up the roof.
Three bystanders were hit. One is dead, two are critically injured. No names for any of them.
Shooters house invaded overnight, nothing reported as of this morning.
The whole video you see is very misleading. It looks like there are people seated directly behind Trump. They are actually probably 20 feet away. There is a normal sized stage likely 10 ft deep and the podium is at the front of it. Then a grassy area and then the bleachers. There is also some distance between the crowd in front of the podium and the stage. Those that were hit were most likely in another set of bleachers to Trumps let, camera right which can't be seen in the videos. This set comes forward and is perpendicular to the stage rather than parallel like the one behind.
there is also a third set of bleachers mirror imaged on the right, camera left.
Likely no teleprompter hit so the glass theory is out. Trump doesn't use them at rallies and none are seen in any of the videos, bad reporting. There is a photo showing the bullet passing behind Trump which is pretty fantastical if you ask me. I know it's theoretically possible, but it's also much more easily faked. If it is real, it's incredible.
See the chilling photo that captures bullet as it flies past Trump - nj.com
Another fact: President Biden told donors on July 8, "it’s time to put Trump in a bullseye."
This tells me the guy on the roof likely played too much call of duty - the tacticool type that gets kicked out of the range for spraying one mag dump after another all over the place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
I haven't seen a picture yet showing the vantage point, but my instinct was how did he miss? Even if with iron sights (don't know yet what he was using), he couldn't ask for a better position, and a rather large stationary target too. Maybe he didn't plan for getting lots of sweat in his eyes. That metal roof would have been cooking him. Then again, don't know how long he was up there.
It's a miracle he wasn't killed.
A still from todays news shows a bullet trace just behind Trumps head Rt side looking from the left so the round was very close to taking him out.
Had it hit something then it would have fragmented or deflected but in the still its like a straight line on or about his eye level behind his head.
There was a witness who says he watched the shooter climb up there with the rifle and tried to get the police to act. He described the event as happening over two-to-four minutes. He waved his hands at the counter-sniper guys and pointed out the shooter. He says they saw the guy but didn't shoot until he did. Of course, we have to take in these reports and withhold judgement until we have a little more info.Quote:
Originally Posted by ssgross
Bob
Yes I imagine some heads will roll in the secret service for even allowing this type of thing to occur. Trump is lucky I think only because the guy was a bad shot. It is unthinkable to me that a guy can be seen crawling with a rifle up to the roof for 4 minutes and they never took Trump immediately off the stage. Them waiting for him to shoot first tells me that they were confused and maybe thought he was part of their team, but they still should have took Trump off the stage at the very moment they were aware of him on the roof, at least until they could figure out who it was or what was going on
Poor show all way 'round.
I watched the numerous videos of the Secret Service guys, and am of the opinion that they were trying to acertain if the guy was an innocent bystander before taking a shot.
I suspect that they thought they controlled the high ground and had command over the buildings that the shooter used.
Alternately with all of the differnt police agencies present there was a major communication failure, and/or someone was out of assigned position and the position the shooter used was supposed to be occupied by security.
From the videos I've watched, it appears the two snipers had him in their sights and were watching him. I see no excuse here for him getting a shot off. People are acting like they are heroes but they acted too late and after the fact. Had he not missed, Trump would be dead because of their inaction. The first guy actually seemed to jerk back in surprise as the guy fired.
They keep saying he had a AR style rifle which means that unless he had a five round magazine in it, it's going to sit pretty high with the guy shooting prone and it isn't going to look like a camera.
Police have to make split second decisions and, unfortunately, people are very quick to blame the police when the police kill a person by accident and the police officer involved may end up in court charged with murder. We don't know enough details about this case to judge whether or not the police were too slow to act at this stage.
The sad part is the volunteer firefighter who lost his life.
But this wasn't the police, this was the secret service! The secret service is supposed to know every position of every counter sniper on their team and everyone in between having to do with security. Wherever the secret service is, is supposed to be one of the safest areas on the planet, that's how good they are or are supposed to be. There is no excuse for the shooter being able to get on that roof much less get a shot off. I bet before long we start hearing about voluntary resignations from top officials in the secret service having to do with Trump's securityQuote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
Another indication of a possible lapse is in the video of how they got him off the stage. It looks as if the egress route off the stage was only wide enough for 1 person, maybe 2 tops. The evacuation was clearly stalled while the agents fumbled to figure out how to get off the stage whilst still surrounding him.
I just find it more than passing strange that despite numerous reports of spectators pointing the shooter out to authorities, that the shooter allegedly pointed his rifle at a police officer who checked him out, and the counter-sniper team was "surprised" when he opened fire.....well, some may attribute this series of failures to bad luck, poor planning, or incompetence. I see something far more nefarious and frankly extremely disturbing. I'll stop here since I've already been chastised for being too political.
I feel you sapper, The whole thing is starting to smell
Incompetence, whether nefarious or not, was on full display in all the footage and reporting I've seen.
I saw a USMC bumper sticker a while back I really liked. It said "Stay calm, and fix bayonets". I didn't see anyone with that attitude, except for Trump pounding his fist and yelling "Fight!".
The Secret Service does not wait to ascertain whether a threat is real or not. They are not the police, they are to take out any threat, real or not before the President can be harmed. Sounds harsh but this is their way, they are not supposed to make mistakes. At least two of them were watching the shooter, on a roof where no one should have been.
There are a lot of things being called into question, the head of the Secret Service prior experience was security chief of Pepsi Corp. There are women on the protection detail that cannot possibly protect the president from a shot as they are too short. Repeated requests for additional security were denied. There was actually an effort in the House to remove all Secret Service protection from Trump. It fortunately hasn't gone anywhere but it was directed specifically at Trump. Kennedy was denied Secret Service protection up until today by the administration. His father and Uncle were assassinated.
Then there's the kid. 20 years old, no experience at much of anything, little to no online presence, at least that's what we are told. A ladder left on site to allow access. The Secret Service claiming the building and the roof were the responsibility of the local police. Hell, they weld manhole covers shut on routes the President is going to take and they don't check out a roof 140 yards away with clear line of sight.
I’m hearing now that the reason the snipers didn’t take out the shooter is because for three minutes, they waited for permission to do so from the head of the secret service and never got it.
I've wondered for some time. If snipers are that good, why don't they shoot the firearm/weapon instead of the person? Depending if the firearm is visible enough, etc. Especially crew served weapons. Difficult to replace the weapon, easy to replace the operator.
Probably because most aren't that good. Some probably are. To disable a weapon, they are going to have to hit it in a specific spot. Off slightly and it's still operable and the shooter knows he's been seen. It isn't the movies either.
Update on the three minute refusal, it is now believed that is a false rumor.
What I don't get is that many of my facebook friends still have no clue what happened. Not that I do either I suppose but I at least know the basics. One guy believed if this was a real shooting, people behind the President would have been hit, three were, one killed. How do you not know that? Another assumed this was a 22 rimfire at 140 yards, and this guy knows the basics of firearms. Yes it will travel that far but accurate, average of 15" drop at that distance.
In any case, I can't leave you alone for a few days that you start revolution up there in the good ole US of A...
Jokes aside, that was and still is a very strange accident.
I'm so sorry for that poor guy who got killed and for his beautiful family.
"BUTLER, Pa. — Channel 11 News uncovered dramatic new details Monday in the moments leading up to the assassination attempt on former president Donald Trump. According to multiple law enforcement sources, Thomas Crooks was spotted by law enforcement on a roof nearly 30 minutes before shots were fired that injured Trump, killed a former fire chief and injured two others in the crowd.
Channel 11?s Nicole Ford confirmed that Beaver County’s ESU team had eight members at the rally, including snipers and spotters. According to Ford’s sources, one of them noticed a suspicious man on a roof near the rally at 5:45 p.m., called it in and took a picture of the person. We have learned from our sources the person in that picture is Thomas Crooks. We’re told it’s not clear if Crooks had a gun with him at that point.
According to multiple sources, a law enforcement officer had also previously seen Crooks on the ground and called him in as a suspicious person with a picture prior to 5:45 p.m. Our sources tell us an officer checked the grounds for Crooks at that point, but did not see him where the first picture was taken.
26 minutes after the second picture of Crooks was taken by law enforcement and the information called in, shots were fired from the roof of the American Glass Research building. Seconds later, a Secret Service sniper returned fire and killed Crooks."
Brighteon
Brighteon
Brighteon
Brighteon
The water tower overlooks the whole area including all roofs, but apparently no one was there. One would think at least panning and zooming cameras would be installed on such prominences if the structure was not suitable for a live observer.
IMHO the video suggests that neither of the SS counter-snipers on the roof took the shot that killed the would-be assassin. Both can be seen to move and lose their sight picture when the shooter fires. One of the two has purportedly posted on social media under his real name that he had the shooter under observation for about three minutes, but his superior refused to give the order to shoot via radio. Given the visibility and short range and the optics the SS counter-snipers are seen using, if the shooter had even the muzzle of his weapon over the peak of the roof, the SS team should have been able to see it easily. Was there confusion over whether the shooter was part of a security detail?
There are reports a local policeman alerted by the crowd nearby either climbed the ladder used by the shooter to get onto the roof, or was boosted up by a colleague and holding onto the edge of the roof, looked over and saw the shooter from behind. The shooter noticed him and pointed his rifle in his direction at which point the policeman ducked down or jumped to the ground and presumably the shooter started firing not long after.
The shooter was described by a schoolmate as a loner without friends who was constantly bullied, in other words he may just as easily have been another "school shooter".
The bullet which struck him appears to have hit the front upper left side of the head as the exit wound is on the right back side of the neck about four inches behind and inline with the bottom of the jawbone. The left eye socket/brow is pushed outwards and down and teeth appear displaced in the open mouth. Presumably he had ducked his head down when the fatal bullet struck.
His own shots were so rapid its hard to see even an expert shot keeping an accurate aim.
Whatever one thinks about him, Trump is no physical coward and one could say the entire USA "dodged a bullet."
I'm thinking the guy further back is the one that fired the killing shot. The front guy no, he definitely jerks back. It is really hard to tell as it all happens so fast. The 3 minute denial thing is fake but it still doesn't explain why these two did not take him out. What orders did they have. They were sighted in on him, both of them, and they had to see the rifle. AR's sit up pretty high, especially with a scope on it.
They have said that what he was wearing was similar to what some of the security details had but still no excuse here.
"Eventually, however, Crooks made it up onto the roof with DPMS AR-15 5.56 rifle, which authorities recovered at the scene. It had been purchased legally by his father more than a decade ago, according to law enforcement sources."
Finally, a definitive answer on the rifle.
Hey surpmil, where did you see the picture of the dead shooter in such great detail?
I have a photo, not sure I can see everything that surpmil says he can see in it but I'm inclined not to post it because frankly, it's pretty gross. They have him rolled over on his left side showing just his head and face. There is a 1 inch wide congealed track of blood going from the back of his head below his ear to his nose. It looks like he has a bad tooth or possibly a tooth was shot out on the right side of his mouth. There is a steam of blood coming out of his right ear and another stream coming from the back of his head through his hairline and across his forehead. I can determine no entry or exit wound and only see indications of one in the back of the head. Based on angle of the shot I'm aware of, entry wound should be on the left side of his forehead or temple which I can't see. It would be small, probably not a lot of blood from it.
Upon magnification, it is possible the entry wound is through his upper lip on the left side, quite a bit of congealed blood there and it would explain the tooth perhaps. It might not be a tooth either but a piece of debris.
I don't know where I found it, it was from yesterday. I can't find it today, possibly scrubbed. I do have it however but again, reluctant to post or upload to imgur. I don't want to lose my account for some stupid privacy issue.
In additional news, it appears that the building from which the sniper was on the roof was the headquarters for the State Police sniper team. They were inside. The new theory on why the Secret Service snipers did not take him out is because they thought it may have been a State Police sniper on the roof. Poor communication and poor actions by the State Police.
The entrance wound is just to the right of his Left eye. I'm printing copies of this for a poster in my Man cave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
OK, I see it now. I agree that's the entry wound.
Additional information, word of mouth but significant to me because I'm a coach.
He tried out for and was turned down for the High School Rifle team. I did some research to find more out about this, they shoot 22's, probably prone as they have a max of 100 points in a match and score 8 for the match. My leagues uses air rifles and scores 5 for the match, we are also only prone.
He apparently fired one shot from the extreme right side lane and hit the wall on the left side lane. This is not a bad shot, NO ONE is that bad of a shot. This is poor finger control and hitting the trigger while getting into position. I have never had anyone hit any target further than the one to their immediate left or right as they got confused as to which target they were aiming at. He was probably kicked off for a flagrant safety violation. Air rifles, you might get stung, some slight penetration, with 22's, you could be dead.
This report is from two fellow students who also tried out for and made the rifle team.
sSGross I was just thinking that the situation was strange enough…
Then I realised that the “running mate” of Trump is the guy who wrote “Hillbilly Elegy”, about which we talked about.
Well… that guy can’t be bad in my opinion. But I’m almost neutral in this matter, besides gun policy.
Yes. Growing in rural Ohio not too far north of Middletown where the book takes place, and around the same time, I certainly related to, and appreciated his book. As a politician though, I think there are still many open questions. I will keep my thoughts to myself for now, for 2 reasons: This isn't the forum for it, and he doesn't really have a record yet of any significance to analyze.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovidio
I would appreciate if someone would post a link to the detailed picture of the shooter on the roof post-mortem. I understand some might not want to see it, but for those who would like to analyze it, it would be nice to know where to find them. I was able to find one, but I don't think it's the same as you all found, and it seems cropped/edited for the article I found it in. The one I found is in this article:
'https://www'
*****://***ibtimes.sg/thomas-matthew-crooks-explosive-devices-found-trump-shooters-car-it-revealed-gun-used-attack-75282
Note: if you paste the entire link to a photo, our forum website will automatically show the picture. You will need to strip out part of it so it's not detected. Same for links. Wrapping in single quotes seems to work for suppressing the auto-detection sometimes too. Preview your post first.
I found it on Reddit, from a user r/TheCapitalLink. I typed in on reddit's main page Trump shooter postmortem picture
I haven't found a picture of the rifle yet either. I'm curios to know if he was using an optic, red dot, etc.
One report I heard said those earliest sightings from spectators had him using a rangefinder, no rifle visible.
Why did they have "Police" on their vests then if they were "Secret Service" (counter snipers)?Quote:
Originally Posted by jond41403
There does sound like an element of too many agencies involved and perhaps a breakdown in communication between them.
Again, it was not the police that took the shot regardless of what they had on their vests. The secret service are not police in the same sense. You alluded earlier that they might have been afraid to shoot him because of him being an innocent bystander because a lot of cops go to jail and get charged for that type of thing, this is nowhere near the same kind of scenario. The secret service do not have to be as careful as the police do if that makes sense. The president must be protected at all costs, Even if it means the secret service mowing down and innocent civilianQuote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
That photo you posted the link to is the same photo only the quality is less, it's turned 90 degrees and it's a mirror image.
As for the police vs secret service, they were both there. And the police were from several departments. They had the PA State Police, the Butler County Police and the Beaver County "response" team there which had no jurisdiction but were there anyway, not sure in what capacity.
It's normal to have various departments at these events. Communication seems to have failed and this is all on the Secret Service who are to take charge completely in these situations. I have never heard of such a fiasco to be honest.
Add to all this controversy, Secret Service personnel were diverted from the Trump event to an event where the 1st Lady appeared in nearby Pittsburg on the same day. This is idiocy because no one cares about the 1st Lady, no one is going to assassinate her, she needs minimal protection.
Anyone that wants the photo, PM me your email address and I'll send it. I don't have the original link anymore, didn't save it, didn't think to.
Gents, without becoming too gruesome, the whole socket of the left eye and the brow area above it have been detached and pushed forward and down, suggesting pretty conclusively that the entry wound is above and "behind" that area. The blood on the face is what gravity caused to run down as he lay face down on the roof after being killed. The photo shows him rolled onto his left shoulder by the attending officers. We know this because the two blood flows from behind the right ear would have had to defy gravity if he was found lying on his left side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
One wonders what use the police tactical team would be inside a building at such times, and the same building no less.
That's also a metal roof , One would think that the people inside that building would hear someone crawling and flopping around on the roof
How are you so sure of this?Quote:
Originally Posted by jond41403
There is sometimes a difference between what is supposed to happen and what does happen.
It was the Secret Service that took the shot. While this is a confusing mess, that is one thing we are sure of.
Local police are now claiming that one of theirs (also) fired at the shooter. I thought it was strange the disassembly of the venue began the next day before any sort of investigation could begin on site. Or has the podium and the bleachers behind it been left in place?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
The direction a bullet is fired from can often be determined by following its track through solid material, just like a dummy head used in the trenches of WWI.
Reeks more every day…
Has the shooter's brief participation on a HS shooting been confirmed?
Just interviews of two fellow students as far as I know. It is the top link when you do a search for the school.
Any thoughts on why the shooter might have decided to use an AR15 since, according to the press, he had access to around 20 guns?
Hard to say without knowing what any of the other dozen guns were. It wouldn't be my first choice, but it is the most recognizable firearm and for a 20 year old out to make a name for himself if that's what he was doing, why not.
Probably the biggest news about the shooting now is the attempted blame shifting by just about everyone. But it seems none of it is sticking. The head of the Secret Service is being mocked because she claimed that the roof was "sloped" and thus dangerous for personnel. Total crap as the roof the sniper team was on was sloped and higher and possibly steeper than the one the shooter was on. There are also multiple videos of people standing on and walking on that roof. It has a minimal pitch.
The bottom line is that everything is the Secret Services responsibility. They are in charge, they delegate positions, jobs, etc. to all other law enforcement. Security is what they do. Local law enforcement certainly isn't very experienced at that and even the State Police have minimal experience providing security against serious threats. I'm sure they have teams set up for this but were they there? I suspect they were filled up by the local barracks. Pittsburg is close so they probably did have some experienced people there but the Butler County police? No. Local police are great at their jobs but that isn't providing security for someone under threat of assassination.
I keep hearing about SS CS teams in the second floor window below the "Dangerously Pitched" roof chosen by the sure footed perp. I see no second story or windows?
I copied this and sent it to a few friends… We had such a lough. Frankly speaking, I hope a certain gal will be jobless in a few hours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
Some excuses can’t be heard!
They were supposedly in the building, not sure about in any windows and it was ONE STORY. It is a low type building. There is an air conditioner between the two buildings, and he got on that and could reach the roof from there.
"An officer from the Butler Township Police climbed on a fellow officer’s shoulders to check out the roof of the building moments before the shooting — but backed away after Crooks pointed his rifle at him."
https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/...=768&h=448&m=6
https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/...=89&s=116&d=42
Someone took photos of the FBI hosing the blood off the roof after the Secret Service idiot made the comment about the slope.
Since when does FBI do cleanup?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
Seems odd.
Perhaps the CS team was in what appears to be a taller building catty corner to the shooters position? Don't remember windows in that one either. Hard to do surveillance with no windows.
Whole thing seems off.
But don't you have rules/laws in the US relating to working above a certain height where certain safety precautions are "supposed" to be observed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
The Secret DEI Service is crowing on the news about how the counter sniper took a "1 in a Million" shot to take out the shooter. 1 in a million? My other word for a donkey! Have you seen pictures of the rifles used? High dollar optics, range finder, laser designator, heavy barreled rifle sitting in a Bog Deathgrip tripod? From a dedicated counter sniper team that gets unlimited tax-payer funded range time, equipment and ammo? My inexpensive Anderson Arms AM10 puts 168 gr. SMKs into 1 inch at 100 yds all day long and thats with a cheap Nikon scope. The SS is in full blown CYA mode right now.
---------- Post added at 04:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:48 AM ----------
Oh yes, very much so. OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) would have fined the Police Department had they climbed on the roof after the shooter and the Crooks family will be receiving a harshly worded letter for their son attempting to kill Presdident Trump without appropriate tie off to a point rated by an accredited Safety Officer to accept a kinetic load of 5,000 lbs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
One in a million shot…
I was gasping after reading that. C’mon guys! Let’s be serious!!!
Any of you ever been in slaughterhouses in summer? There’s a better smell than in this news.
I'm not subject to OSHA rules. I wander around roofs up to 6/12 pitch with no harness. 7/12 pitch and up I have roof jacks, still no harness unless it's a two story house. I don't do much roofing since the aneurysm however. My balance hasn't seemed 100% ever since then, plus I tire easily.
The pitch of that roof is 1-2/12 pitch.
Osha has no oversight over the military or the secret service haha. Can you imagine? Secret service sniper needs to move 5 ft to the right on the sloped roof cuz he can't get a clear shot but that darn tie off haha. Let me just unhook here and hook back up to My new position and then I'll be ready haha.
And in another new twist to this disaster:
Government whistleblowers have informed U.S. Senator Josh Hawley (R-MO) that former President Donald J. Trump‘s security detail at his July 13 rally, where a would-be assassin made an attempt on his life, was mostly comprised of Department of Homeland Security (DHS) personnel and not United States Secret Service (USSS). In the days following the attempted assassination, the USSS has attempted to blame local police for the lapse in security. “Whistleblower allegations suggest the majority of DHS officials were not, in fact, USSS agents but instead drawn from the department’s Homeland Security Investigations (HSI),” the Missouri Senator wrote in a letter Friday to DHS Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas. Sen. Hawley continued: “This is especially concerning given that HSI agents were unfamiliar with standard protocols typically used at these types of events, according to the allegations.”
Yes I am familiar with working on roofs and I do maintain several flat roofs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
If the safety of law enforcement officers that are being asked to go onto a roof is being considered then I believe that is a reasonable consideration. It is not just the risk of falling off a roof but also the risk of falling through a roof. It all depends on a number of different variables such as the type of roof material, how strong the roof is, how many people are on the roof , etc etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by jond41403
Not getting on the roof is one thing. Keeping other people off the roof is another thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
The crazy grows: Fully one third of the members of a certain political party in America believe the attempted Trump assination was faked by Trump himself as reported on Fox news this morning.
Regardless of any of that, it does not apply to the secret service. If it did, all the enemy or would be snipers would have to do would be study OSHA regulations to know what the secret service or military can and can't do haha. When it comes to protecting the life of a president or former president or soon to be president, all stops are pulled out and safety is only focused on the president, not the agents. If the military or secret service had to follow OSHA rules, they would not be able to get their job done. It would be ridiculous to see secret service or police or military snipers tied off to every high up position they obtain, it's just not practical. This cheatle lady not voluntarily resigning after being globally humiliated says a lot. She seems to think she did nothing wrong haha. Regardless, she could never be fully trusted again by any of her clients that she supposed to protectQuote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
OSHA is only after those it can collect from. I understand safety for workers but they've gone overboard. Personal examples: When we worked in a Industrial facility we'd have to harness up and tie off when working above 4'. This may mean going 40' up to string a 'Approved' tie off point with multiple drop down hook ups. On a Commercial / New Home site it would be working above 6'. Any roof more than 6' off the ground without rails or a protected edge requires a proper tie off and workers wearing a safety harness. If a Inspector can insert 3 fingers between your leg loops you will be fined.
About Kimberly Cheatle.......... Can you say DEI ??
Did anyone ever hear any mention of the tree line being a factor?
Alea jacta est…
I'm not sure even Julius would want to wade in to this mess :ugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovidio
He had different methods to solve problems.
Mess? Where’s the mess?
Why are you so fixated with tie-offs and safety harnesses? I have most certainly not suggested that Law enforcement should have used them.Quote:
Originally Posted by jond41403
---------- Post added at 03:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:41 AM ----------
The problem is common sense has gone out of the window.Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
I'm sorry I must have misunderstood but you are the one that seems fixated on agent and officer safety and the rules or laws of our country pertaining to such safety which would be OSHA. Like when the cheatle lady said she didn't want officers on that roof because of safety concerns with the slope and you seemed to defend that decision which her decision is ludicrous. everyone knows what she said is Ludacris except you!I have only told you how our secret service works because you seem to have no clue. To the point it almost seems you are trolling. That kind of stuff is best suited for platforms like YouTube or Twitter. If you are not trolling I apologize but it sure seems like you are to me. You seem to lean against almost anything I comment like I don't know what I'm talking about. If I'm not sure, I usually comment that I'm not sure. and if I'm wrong, I admit I'm wrong and usually thank the person that corrected my wrong.So what's your point? How are we all wrong? It's getting even more confusing because you are commenting on things that do not pertain to anything going on currently which is the attempt at assassination of Trump and how the secret service screwed up big time. It has nothing to do with what any agent was wearing, or safety measures preventing a secret service sniper or police from being on that roof. Some secret service where police vests, some wear black suits, some wear plain clothes.It's just excuses they are rambling off to save face and cover their own hind ends. Also, in the United States, any safety measures concerning heights is going to include tie-offs(hence the "fixation "and other members" fixation"with tie offs)Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
Because secret service where police vests, black suits, plain clothes, and various other uniforms. They don't all wear the same uniforms like a ball teamQuote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
---------- Post added at 01:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 AM ----------
It is not a reasonable consideration by the secret service director to not put agents on that roof because of a slope,it's ludicrousQuote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
---------- Post added at 01:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 AM ----------
I am sure the same way everybody else on here is sure. From the very beginning the secret service said they had the inner perimeter and the police had the outer perimeter. The snipers behind Trump's stage with the police vests on were obviously on the inner perimeter which should tell anybody they were secret service. They are not going to trust police snipers enough to put them right behind Trump. Anything that close to him is going to be reserved for secret service only.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
The weirdest part of all this is how the guy missed at only 140 yards. That's actually pretty close.Quote:
Originally Posted by jond41403
Yes Mr Trump was extremely lucky. Thank goodness that guy was a horrible shot because like you say, it was such a short range ,I don't see how he missed either. I saw a video explaining just how close Trump came to being hit right in the forehead. It is amazing, he turned his head to the side just in the nick of time to be hit in the ear instead of the head. If he hadn't have turned to his right to look at a screen when he was talking about immigration statistics, he would be dead right now
Has anybody heard of any reports on if the shooter used an optic or anything? The articles I read just mentioned the brand and caliber but mentions nothing about if any optics were used. Still though, even with iron sights that should have been a relatively easy shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by MAC702
JD,
Sounds like the Sniper had a partial view of Crooks right side of his face and front of a optic, just above the ridge of the 1/12 pitched roof.
It is believed at this time the Butler Police officer that was raised over the roof, catching Crooks attention before the officer dropped back down caused Crooks to rush his 8 (?) shots.
I'm watching the Oversight Hearing now. Cheatle isn't giving detailed answers.
FYI: A 1/12 pitch is the correct slope for a wheelchair ramp.
But be sure to put on the brake before taking the shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
Bob
I'd say that's just right!Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
Some new information to muddy things up even more if that is possible.
His former high school has come forward to set the record straight. They have no records of this kid being bullied. He was smart, got good grades and was popular with his teachers (teacher's pet it sounds like).
They have no record of him trying out for the rifle team nor does the coach remember him, but they did acknowledge that he could have come to a class, fired a shot and then left and there would be no record of this. (I have open gyms prior to the start of season and tryouts. Usually at least two. Kids can come without physicals and shoot as this is not rifle practice, nor a tryout, it's like a gym class. It gives kids the opportunity to see if they might like it before actually signing up for it. I keep a list of attendees but usually discard it after the season starts. I also have trouble remembering kids who never made varsity if they were there for only one year).
.
He was NOT the student who made threats against the school, that was someone else. And he has no record of any disciplinary incidents on either side, so no bullying.
So where is the media coming up with all this? Word of mouth of classmates? Some of it yes.
I has also been released that they had the shooter in their rifle sights for over two minutes prior to the shooting. They were told that there was going to be a sniper on that roof. This smells to high heaven. There was a sniper alight, one wanting to kill the President.
But so do the police wear police vests and at this stage you don't know which were secret service and which were police.Quote:
Originally Posted by jond41403
---------- Post added at 01:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 AM ----------
There may have been other legitimate safety concerns that are not currently in the public domain.Quote:
Originally Posted by jond41403
---------- Post added at 01:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:33 AM ----------
I don't believe that you can be sure of anything relating to this matter at this stage.Quote:
Originally Posted by jond41403
This does not mean he wasn't bullied. It just means there's no paper trail of it. Not all bullying gets documented. Depending on the severity of what qualifies as "bullying" these days, it's very possible that most of it is undocumented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
I believe I read somewhere where they were interviewing a few of his classmates and they said that he did get bullied a little bit but nothing over the top at all. Who knows if that was just made up by the media or true I don't knowQuote:
Originally Posted by MAC702
Well it looks to me there were no legitimate safety concerns with the roof being there are four grown men standing in one 4-ft area proving structural integrity, also proving the pitch of the roof was hardly anything to worry about. The structure is not dilapidated in any way. If those grown men can stand there and process the crime scene, then a sniper team could have stood there with rifles.
7/23/24 @ 10:30 am EST
Does this mean she now pleads the 5th to any future questions?
I bet you it does!Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
New information. Not sure how relevant it is, in my opinion, the Secret Service still bears sole responsibility for the attempted assassination.
The ranking PA State Police representative testified today that there was a walkthrough at the site which included the building where the shooter climbed on the roof. The Secret Service assigned the Butler County ESU the responsibility for the building. Just prior to the assassination attempt, the two Butler County officers in the room overlooking the roof left to search for the shooter who had just been seen and reported to them. The range finder information was relayed to the centra command post where the PA State Police immediately reported it to the Secret Service. Pause for individual commentary: THIS IS WHERE THE SECRET SERVICE TELLS TRUMP TO NOT GO ON STAGE. OK, then. Moving on, two local officers told about the shooter on the roof attempted to see him, one climbing on the others shoulders and then falling as he was confronted by Crooks. Crooks then turned and fired EIGHT TIMES.
We now have Congressmen suggesting the unthinkable with this after the testimony of the Secret Service head. At least two have publicly come forward and suggested that even though they don't want to create a conspiracy theory, they can't rule it out due to the bizarre nature of this event.
The sniper teams were not on that roof they were on 2 different roofs.Quote:
Originally Posted by jond41403
People can and sometimes do fall through roofs if inadequate safety precautions are not taken.
What thread have you been reading? When did I say snipers were on that roof? Everybody has known the whole time the counter snipers were on two different roofs haha!The whole argument is the director never put snipers on that roof. And you defended basically the secret service directors assessment that it was dangerous by saying there could be underlying causes of safety measure issues that we don't know of or in the public domain. All those people on that small patch of roof near the shooter proves that there was no underlying safety precautions that you seem to think existed. You are the only one that thinks that by the way.the counter snipers were on two different roofs , Yes they sure were, the secret service counter snipers right behind Trump stage left and stage right on two different barn roofs. keep grasping at straws my man haha. Sometimes it can be wonderfully funny when some people can't stand to be even a little bit wrong haha. They start bickering like a lawyer , grasping at any straw that can keep their argument afloat hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
It's obvious you are trolling. I will be wasting no more time on you. I don't know if you're a Trump hater that just wants to fill a thread about his assassination attempt full of gibberish or what, But it's not going to go any further with me. You can play your trolling BS with someone else on here that would be willing to play along with youQuote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
"Bodycam video from local law enforcement"Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
https://www.foxnews.com/video/6359018649112
All those people standing on the exact same roof. Certainly looks like very inadequate safety precautions. Someone must have edited out all the parts where they each fell through one by one.
I don't have a dog in this fight but the videos, counter videos, facts, counter facts, rumours, counter rumours, photos, experts and not-so experts, drawings, graphs, photos, eyewitness reports, press releasess, media reports and 'truths', investiigations, allegations, etc, etc make for endlessly fascinating reading and viewing. I'm just wondering and speculating about the probably indefinite report with inconclusive findings that will, probably, eventually, possibly lay this incident to rest. Or not.:dunno:
Let's settle the roof safety issue. It's a steel roof, it has at a minimum, 2x4 stringers underneath it on truss rafters. It is designed for snow load. NO ONE is going to fall through it. There is ZERO safety issues with a steel roof. Watching these guys walking around on it, I can tell it's built substantially better than the average pole building as the spacing on the stringers is close enough that they are not watching to walk on them specifically.
As a remodeling contractor who has built, repaired and replaced many roofs in my 40 year career, the chances of falling through a roof are near ZERO. It simply does not happen except in the movies. In all that time, I have gone through a roof with my foot one time, because it was a shingle roof that was in very bad shape, I was inspecting it knowing it was bad and very cautiously making my way around it. The shingles were intact over pulverized rotted plywood.
Back to the snipers on that roof. According to some sources, there was supposed to be a either a sniper or an observer on that roof watching which is why the sniper teams hesitated on shooting the assassin. That individual or individuals left the roof because it was "too hot"
Some of my questions have been answered. It seems the one story building (assassin's position) and the two story building attached by a breezeway are being considered as one building. Sounds as if both were occupied/covered two local LEOs looking out the windows of the two story wing. They probably should not have abandoned that post but it does seem they were being pro active. Sounds like a manpower issue outside the fence and poor /slow communications.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...758f558b-1.jpg
My understanding from the take away when the members of congress visited the grounds is the 2 story with the upper windows is just to the left of where GUNMAN is marked. 2 local LEO's were stationed at 2 upper windows but were called out to look for Crooks early on when a 'Suspicious Person Search' was being carried out.
Also noted by the members is that no one was assigned to the water tower.
The Room,Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
Must have been the building to the left of GUNMAN in the picture. Being in the upper windows. A member of the congress group showed a view from each window, from which the area between the buildings could easily be seen and had a full view of the roof Crooks shot from.