Members might be interested in this
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/leramembers/
Sorry - you might not be able to access the messages - it concerns a purported fake rifle for sale
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Members might be interested in this
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/leramembers/
Sorry - you might not be able to access the messages - it concerns a purported fake rifle for sale
Where is it for sale then? UK?
The post doesnt say - but LERA is UK based so I suspect it is, If anyone needs to pursue it they could probably do so through the posting
English libel laws will probably make people careful about saying too much to identify this vendor.
I saw the 'last SMLE in the inventory of the Royal Navy' offered for sale in a similar magazine, purporting to have been used for mine clearance and line throwing on the old Ice Patrol and Survey ship HMS Endurance before it was scrapped. I doubted this because I happened to know that they used L1A1 SLR's for their line throwing and doubt that many mines were laid around the antarctic! I also happened to know the Stores Officer, a now retired Lt Commander on the said ship no less - who is also a keen shooter, a firearms dealer and all-round good bloke who would recognise a solitary SMLE among the Lanchesters and L1A1's on his ship. He also said that the notion of an SMLE rifle on that or ANY Royal Navy ship for ANY purpose in the 80's was pure horse manure. He wasn't as polite as that though! But STILL they wouldn't pull the ad or invite the dealer vendor to 'alter it slightly'.
It also reminded me of an little garage where I lived as a boy in the 50's. It had an old jeep as a general hack, still painted in the old post war RAF blue/grey colour and the words 'GUARD ROOM' still slightly visible. I saw this same jeep, 20 or so years later, now gleaming and in mint condition, displayed at a show being declared as the jeep that Ike liberated Paris in ....or some other such fairy story. Not only was the English registration number the same, but even the holes where the garage winch and jib were previously fitted were still intact!
Yes, fake No4T's....where were we?
For some time there has been a number of fake 4-T Enfields assembled in the Victoria BC area.
These are passed off (sold) at gun shows as real T rifles.
Recently I have been told that new 4T Scope mounts and pads are now being manufactured in Sidney BC just north of Victoria on Vancouver Island and the first set is either delivered or being finished and I am told they are not cheap.
Apparentl the fellow (so I am told) will be fitting out No4 rifles with the parts and selling tem as T rifles.
However, I have to say this is the word in the local gun community (not mine) and some have no nice words for the fake reproduction and sale of "said fakes".
Will report more as the product reaches the hands of all you out there.
Just be aware that if any 4T rifles seem to be coming out of Canada any time soon that one would be well advised to "check the unit with a microscope" or bear the knoweledge that you have been had.
I have seen real suspect stampings and markings on some of these rifles in the past eight years.
Have not bought one for that reason alone.
Regards
Terry in Victoria BC
That’s interesting Terry. I haven’t heard about that yet. Do you know who it is?
A number of years ago I saw a fellow selling what looked like a table full of NO4T’s at the Sidney B.C. show. On close inspection it became obvious they were fake but the seller was quite willing to let me believe (or so he thought) for some time they were original. He confessed he had made them when it became obvious I had some knowledge of the No4T.
Putting fakes into figures, you can only fake so many No4T's until you run out of telescopes.... which I think number 26,000 or so. Less the 1100 or so L42's less the 80 of both sorts or so that I have personally or been closely involved in wriiting off/reduced to scrap............. Phew, it's still a lot!
Speaking of line throwing guns, I do have a No4 that was used for that purpose.
No sights and a LARGE LT in white paint on the buttstock.
You didn't really need sights cause a ship was a rather easy short range target;)
Four or five years ago a certain well known Western gun dealer(one who won't knowingly be OVERsold) had TWO LB T's at the"Calgary Easter Gun Show".
One was righteous and he had apparently swindled some farmer(who knew not what he had) out of it for bupkes/peanuts.That rifle was a gem and all matching(a 90L8xxx with the matching REL No32Mk3 scope and rubber pad bottomed scope case etc) while the second one was a TOTAL hump.Only the No32Mk3 REL scope was righteous.The fellow who is now the WO/ic Sniper Rifle Development and Procurement at DND-HQ brought it over to my tables and asked for a critique.The dealer/fraudster knew VERY well that it was a hump but was lying his fool head off defending the piece.Honesty and honour fly out the window with that scumzoid when a dollar may be made.No fewer than 5 well experienced Long Branch nuts told this putz that he was trying to sell an outright fake for over five grand and all that happened was that his Brit accent got shriller along with an elevated decibel level.
I have refused to buy anything from the thief ever since nor will I buy anything anyone else is selling that he imported.I am sure that rifle is out there somewhere probably being lovingly fondled by someone who gives it pride of place in his collection.There aren't all that many Long Branch T's floating about Western Canada so be aware and REALLY ask lots of questions and demand provenance should anyone attempt to sell you a LB/T.Post lots of photos here and use Clive Law's book on Canadian Sniper Rifles for reference too.El Scumbago sold that rifle so it's out there someplace."Prenez GARDE mes enfants"!!JR
In rsponse to No4 T's post above------
Yes I was a at that Sidney show as well and gave the poor (kidding) fellow a bit of an education on No4 t markings even though i am certainly NO expert.
Even I was able to figure out that this guy had back humped these rifles into bogus No4 T rifles.
Funny to see how as soon as he realized one knew what to look for his certainty in their "real status" dropped to --Zero in his descriptions of the rifles.
Sad to see scumbags willing to rip off fellow gun collectors. Wish I knew his name.
But to answer your question of--- (I haven’t heard about that yet. Do you know who it is?)
No I do not know the name of the fellow but can get it easy enough. (I think)
Regards
Terry in Victoria BC
Doesn't do to let the fakers learn too much from you. It just makes their next effort harder to discern!
The M1 Garand forum took to scrutinizing cartouches on stocks some years ago and guess what? The stock cartouches got better and better. It is now impossible to tell the differences between originals and fakes unless you are familiar with aging of finishes.
There is little doubt that the stamps being hawked on eBay are as good as the originals in size, letter perfection and details.
The end result? The fakers even learned that original stamps were often struck incompletely or on an angle, producing partial stamps. Older fakes are easy to spot with their full face, deeply struck cartouches, which were almost never seen in the arsenal. I am certain there are exceptions to all rules and someone will point out my errors here as well.
No doubt, as we speak, someone is out there figuring out how to age BLO or how to produce that grainy, new finish from fifty years ago that we see on Collector Grade Garands or that rare example that has been stored and left untouched. I recently read an online report on how to produce the Springfield Arsenal tung oil finish for that "new, from the arsenal" look.
The detail guys can tell whether something has been milled at certain angle or should have park or blue, but most collectors will get soaked by fakes unless there are legitimate dealers who won't touch the questionable stuff.
:banghead:
Hi All,
Here is the message which was posted on the LERA website.
"To ALL Members, I have recently been made aware of a fake Canadian No.4Mk1*(T) being offered for sale for around the £2200 mark. If any members are considering this rifle (or any other rarities being offered by the same person and his colleagues) please be advised that it is not what it appears to be and it seems to have been purposely faked using specifically manufactured stamps. The level of deception is very good which must border on criminal (?). The serial No. of this rifle is 81L1497 it is fitted with a British Mk1 No.32 scope made by Kodak. Be alert, Andy "
Its an pitty that there are guys who want to make an profit using fraudulent methods.
We all know these rifles are scarces and high in price. They still could make some good money in telleing the buyer they will buy an repro. Than no harm is done....
Thanks for the reply Terry. This sucks as now any No4T sold in Canada will have to be scrutinized very closely. Additionally any rifles being sold from west coast sellers will also carry an additional burden of proof.Quote:
Originally Posted by terryinvictoria
PS are you going to make it up to the Duncan show on the 23rd?
Yes I plan on being at the show early in the morning (relatively). Between 9 and 10 I suppose.
Have not been to the shows regularly for a little over a year now although did make one show a long time back.
Now as to these No4T pads and mounts I have not seen them yet. Apparently word is that they are a serious copy of the original. But if they are not cast I find it hard to believe that they will not be easy to spot as fakes.
It is possible that one has made a casting and is having it machined I guess. Will be neat to see the finished product so I can report the quality or lackof to the masses.
Seems to be under wraps maybe for a very good reason--that being the maker who is not the machinist is going to pass off fakes as real T rifles.
Terry
Regards
Terry
I think that you will more likely find the parts for "AUCTION"(I DETEST THAT DESCRIPTION as it is nothing more than the refuge of the GREEDY)on fleabay.
The Long, tall ,bearded drink of water you guys are referencing has ALWAYS flogged stuff on e-PAY AND I have never had him try to mis-represent anything to me.He knows that I am quite au fait with anything Long Branch and REL and don't really care about the Brit made stuff so perhaps that explains it.Has anyone actually had him MIS-REPRESENT anything to your face(s)? I bought a Brit'bracket' from him and he told me that he had renumbered it but the bracket WAS RIGHTEOUS.IT WAS TOO !!
Please do NOT cast the first stone as it were unless you are rock bottom POSITIVE that your facts are indeed FACTUAL.He told me that he was having brackets made and that they would be spot on albeit expensive and that he would be flogging them on fleabay.IF he is trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes and anyone has PROOF of this...okay.BUT,as many of us know Dr Roger Payne has gone through great difficulty having GOOD repro brackets made and has NEVER said anything other than the fact that he had them made either.Nobody has thrown any brickbats at Roger and I hope they won't in this instance either unless PROOF of chicanery comes to light.
Nuff said,
JR
I have to say first and foremost that I know Dr Roger. Not well, but to say hello to and recognise, so I have no interest one way or the other. BUT, his brackets fall into an entirely different category than the 'fakes' simply because while his weren't actually manufactured for the UK MoD, it's a simple fact of life that some 50+ of his first batch were actually purchased by the MoD to refurbish needy L42's that were destined for mobilisation stores/War-Reserve. They were thoroughly trialled and tested for durability, material strengh and spec beforehand too! And those made subsequent are to the same spec so I understand. So are they fakes, repros, aftermarket, original equipment or what?
I feel that the acid test is this. Can anyone out there think of a simple test to ascertain whether a material is or isn't malleable 'whiteheart' cast iron, cast to BS-309 or malleable 'blackheart' cast iron. The difference between the two is that blackheart is mixed using scrap iron while whiteheart is crucible mixed using new...... If it's not made from one of these materials, then it's a fake. And if you're interested, his were cast from malleable whiteheart cast iron. On that basis, I'd be inclined to say that they were somewhat better than good - or passable! I'd say that they were as near to original as you'll ever get.
Although no mention of castings was made I DID hear the CNC word.This being the case(I think) I would logically assume that the repro scope mounts/brackets would be machined from bar stock or billets.
The point of the exercise was NOT to start throwing rocks/brickbats/mud/ordure on account of INSUFFICIENT intelligence or information on the matter.Flights of fancy and conjecture are NOT in order when a person's reputation is on the line.Now,if it were a slug like George Liakos and his dodgy M1 Carbine fake parts anyone throwing mud/slagging etc would be on safe ground but NOT in this instance.
I recall Peter L. referring to the party in question as "an ENTERPRISING LAD" too I do believe.Shall we leave it at this? JR
I believe the question is not regarding the manufacture of reproduction / copy parts - which is a useful service for those wanting to build a clone, or who cannot afford an original - but more a question of what the parts are sold as.
If sold as reproduction parts (as Roger Paynes parts are) then everyone knows what they are buying, if the parts are sold as 'originals' then there is an issue.
Bigger problems could happen further down the line when the seller / dealer sells the rifle as 'original' either intentionally misleading, or because he has no knowledge of the repro' parts.
Maybe the answer is to mark up the parts "copy" (or similar) but then some enterprising seller would no doubt claim it was a special rifle as it belonged to the "Company Of Paratroop Yankees"
Its been a problem in the automotive industry for years - Caveat Emptor.
Let the buyer beware.
Alan,you are talking to a guy who cut his teeth selling rock drill parts that we had made in South Africa for everyone ELSE'S rock drills here in Canada.We were truly HATED by the competition as we were ALSO importing and selling a BETTER rock drill as well .We got them to lay off with trying to slag our drills in return for NO LONGER selling the "pirate" drill parts.Instead we sold THEM all the parts and did they scrpa them??? Oh NO, they sold them as their own at full whack.
I am also quite ready to start having pirate PUMP parts made AGAIN if a certain American Multi National which I used to work for tries any more funny stuff.Cost them a bomb it did last time around the course and with this current economy I think they had best just keep sweet too.
Dear Terry,Quote:
Originally Posted by terryinvictoria
The mounts that are being made for me are IWS bracket reproductions, nothing else. If you haven't seen it, they are fully described in my fixed price eBay listings. My feedback speaks for itself I think.
If you'd like a reproduction N92 style bracket I suggest you contact Dr. Payne.
I sold my last 'spare' original bracket to John as he has mentioned in this thread.
The bracket that I sold John in a moment of weakness(!) was numbered by me to match a No4(T) that I had completely refurbished. It came from the infamous "JR the Webley King" and while it had an excellent original barrel, it was ROUGH in finish and woodwork. I also didn't like the poor filing etc. on the receiver, so I tidied it all up, glass beaded, parkerized, painted in the military manner etc. It looks damn good now if do say so myself. That was more than 15 years ago of course and prices, scarcity and demand have made such refurbishing of a No4(T) unwise from a resale point of view. However, that was then and I did it to please myself, not anyone else.
Now that bracket happens to be the only thing I've ever renumbered. My rifle and if I want to refinish and renumber it, within the confines of law of course, no one's business but mine and as I still have the rifle I intend to get the bracket back one day as it will make a nice shooting set for those rare occasions when I get to the range.
If you'd spoken to me at the show a few years ago where John bought the bracket, I would have told you as I told everyone else who enquired about it, exactly what had been done to the mount and rifle.
I didn't have to tell anyone, and knowing how some people think, or don't, I suppose it would have been more 'tactical' not to say anything, but then I'd be passing it off as original and that isn't my game.
I don't know who's telling you the stories about building No4(T)s, I very much doubt anyone is doing so, certainly not me! Still it makes a good story and we all know how stories grow with the telling.:rolleyes:
I go most of the lower island gunshows, I've never seen these "fake No4(T)s", how did you know they were fake?
Are you referring to me? My table was next to John's and it was 'several' years ago that I had several No4(T)s on a table out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by No4Mk1(T)
I'm afraid I didn't "confess" to making any No4(T)s...I wish I could though.:D
Perhaps you are mis-remembering my explaining the renumbering of that bracket? IIRC the other rifles did not have scopes or brackets.
Those rifles have mostly gone to other collectors now, some perhaps even as well-informed as you, and so far none of them have complained about their "fake" No4(T)s...:rolleyes:
What year was this again? And where exactly in the hall was this table?Quote:
Originally Posted by terryinvictoria
I remember you wrote some piece about "How to tell if your No4(T) is a fake" back on the old Jouster forum. As I pointed out to you then, as politely as I could, some of your comments were inconsistent with Peter Laidler's book.
If you want to know my name, look in the credits thereof; though I should say that I didn't really deserve to be there and didn't know I was going to be.
I've owned two trials T's, a 1941 Maltby, and various BSA's over the years, 8 or 9 T's in all and about 30 No32 scopes. I've studied them pretty closely, along with the books and a couple of boxes of letters and notes from well-informed individuals.
You used complain on the Jouster site about the price of No4(T)s; do you actually own any?
I'm not referring to any one person as I do not know the name of the person I talked to at the gunshow.Quote:
Originally Posted by John R.
I have no idea who you are. Would that be John R to whom you are referring? I have corresponded with him via email a few times but to the best of my knowledge I have never met him in person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Surpmil
If you didn’t confess then it wasn’t you. It’s that simple. The person I’m referring to told me outright that he had installed a few sets of reproduction pads onto bog stock No4Mk1s. I have no idea if the seller was trying to test ether my knowledge or the quality of his work but he allowed our conversation to go on until I said I felt the rifles were reproductions. I have no idea if said seller would have made a full discourser had I made an offer to purchase without demonstrating at least a basic knowledge of what I was looking at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Surpmil
IMHO renumbering of components to match a collectable rifle is fakery. Even if you disclose what you have done to the new owner what is to stop that person from passing it off as original? (granted this is unlikely being that you sold it to John R).Quote:
Originally Posted by Surpmil
I’m happy for both you and the buyers of your rifles however don’t you think it might be prudent to at least find out if it was you I was referring to or criticize my Enfield knowledge before making public comments like this? At no point did I say that “you” were selling “Fake” No4Mk1(T) rifles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Surpmil
My comments above were simply relating what I experienced on one occasion. I have no idea if the person to whom I spoke and was offering the humped T’s and the person that Terry is referring are the same person.
My comments were based on conversations in the Victoria area with Enfield affectianadoes.
Secondly I never named anyone in the posts and would not. I do not make a habit of asking people in the gun world their names and therefore I have no names to give here nor would I post them if I new the individuals (ever)
a) first- I was told that some T rifles have been made up on the west coast over the past 10 years or so this was by a fellow that does have the knowledge and has inspected a few of these at gun shops and shows.
b) I was told that someone in the Victoria area was making (described as follows) exact reproductions of both pads and scope brackets so exact no one would be able to tell the difference. I did not ask the name or who this was.
I did find that hard to believe but thought it worth mentioning to the crowd here based on what I was later told.
c) An enfield owner said that some T rifles were going to be made in the Victoria area. I have no knowledge more than that. He said that an individual was going to make up some rifles with some made up brackets on No4 receivers?
d) As to the rifle at the gun show it was questionable, and I have no idea of whether this was you I certainly did not identify you nor did I give a name nor would I do so. when I questioned the rifle the owner seemed to back off or so I thought about the rifle's originality. Again I do not know you, nor do I know your name.
e) Putting all these together I think most would agree it is better to air the concerns that to sit back and watch some fellow collectors be skinned if in fact they are exposed to some fake rifle.
f) I am not an expert in the T world and have never said I am. I do however question the intent when considering the chatter in the Enfield community about a Fake T rifles in the community and more possibly being assembled. AND I do not know who this is, they could be buying parts from anyone or anywhere. I do not know in any way if this was you nor did I say that you were involved seeing as I do not know you as far as I know. It is certainly possible you do not know who might be doing this either.
Putting everything together though --it is better to mention it rather than sit back and watch.
Regards
Terry
Before this turns into a thread that I need to close, "everyone take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard"
Nothing improper has taken place.....................YET in this thread
No person has been accused of anything.
Let's leave it that way unless someone has incontrovertible evidence (and it had better be good)
This has just been a discussion that has highlighted the well known term Caveat Emptor -let the buyer beware.
.....Quote:
Originally Posted by No4Mk1(T)
Regarding your comment above Amatikulu, that no one has been accused of anything, based on the quotes above I can't agree.
Hi guys .... :)
Threads like this concern me at a number of levels....
First, who the heck is Andy? I see a lot of people discussing and trashing a rifle based upon some guy named Andy's say so, originating from a U.K. based web site we can't even access from here without having a third party stenographer cut-n-paste information over here. :confused:
Second, I've seen no pictures of this specific rifle on which I could form any personal opinion, not even detailed specifics as to what the exact issue is? :confused:
Third, I didn't wade though it all, but the thread morphed from talking about a fake No.4(T) (in the UK?), into a vague anecdotal discussions about fraudulent dealers flogging items here in B.C. Canada. Inadvertently, it appears that we dragged into some question, the reputation of yet another individual who happens to be a member in good standing here, only because he lives in B.C., and from that people might draw inferences he's the dealer being referred to. Am I missing something here? :confused:
Here's my concern my friends. Someone owns this rifle and the value has instantly been diminished the moment our unknown friend Andy posted the original thread on the U.K. site. The thread went viral on the Internet and now it's on our site and regardless of whether the rifle is legitimate or not, the owner (and unnamed seller) have been drawn and quartered without any due process, or even having a fair opportunity to respond. :move eek:
These kind of threads make me uncomfortable and they sound and read like soap operas, where it's almost as if we're taking relish in gossip and other people's misfortune. ;)
So, if there's any reason that this thread should not simply disappear into the black hole of pseudo science because of it's like of factual support, details of the transactions with specific names, or more importantly, an actual photo album for ALL of us to view the rifle up close, then I'm listening...
Please send me a PM (or email) as to why it be allowed to stand. If I don't hear from anyone providing supporting materials, I'll assume most of you agree with me and I'll delete the thread, beacuse I don't wish it to be "screen scraped" from our site and passed onto another site as gospel. :thup:
Thanks for listening to an old guy who's had a tough day ... :cheers:
Regards,
Badger (Doug)