Hello all...
Bought a mint Enfield the other day..Had some white bands across it and DP stenciled on some locations..Want to say it was stamped on the receiver...Cleaned it (Beautifull bore) and fired it with a friend..First round fired caused reciever to explode tearing off half my left thumb...Hmmm...
I sit here typing with hand in cast...
Anyone familiar with the stamp DP...
Old Joe..
DP = Drill Purpose i.e. not for shooting
Those officially condemned were made incapable of firing by different methods
Yikes... most Enfield guys know DP = DO NOT FIRE. (condemned rifle - usually due to a safety problem)
Old Joe
Did you have anyone take any photos of the rifle after the accident? What severed your left thumb and how were you holding the rifle meaning are you left or right handed and did the barrel let go also.
Were you shooting new factory ammunition, reloads or surplus ammunition. Under normal conditions the Enfield action is very rugged and as far as myself as an Enfield collector and shooter I would like to know more about what happened and what the Enfield looks like now.
find the guy who sold it to you and make him shoot a DP rifle or put the buttstock to his face and get some teeth marks on your butt plate. cause that is totally @#*#ed up. go to his place and grab the gun you like most and tell him "either you give me this gun or i'll call my lawyer and you'll have to give up everything you got plus more? well, which one?" If it says DP on it he should have known it was a DRILL PURPOSE only model.
Old Joe, I'd like to see some pics of the rifle before we get too much further....
Here's a few links to other threads where Peter Laidler has discussed DP and ZF marked rifles ...
DP Stock Marks Query
DP Rifles
'ZF' marking on Enfields?
Regards,
Badger
sounds like the DP 1903 turn-over guys moved on to the enfields. nobodys happy to until a guy loses part of his body or his or his sons life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amatikulu
I am getting all four rifles I left at the range back tommorow...I will post a picture...
Thanks guys..I know nothing about Enfields but lets just ay I learned one little tidbit I will not forget...
Welcome to milsurps, Old Joe. You've landed in the best place on the web to get the right answers about what has happened to you. Everyone here is here to help any and all to learn and enjoy swapping information about these great old rifles.
If you've checked out a few sites, you'll see that turning DP rifles into shooters is something that is done quite often. If you read Peter's posts from Badger's links above about DP and ZF marked rifles you'll understand why that practice is generally frowned upon here... I'm afraid your accident is the sort of thing we have been dreading, but half expecting to happen.
Anyway, welcome- I hope your recovery is fast and complete.
Regards,
Brad.
Photos of the action would be very helpful in understanding what happened and why.
Sorry to hear of your accident and welcome to the forum.
Maybe the first question should be was it sold to you as a 'shooter' or as a 'wall hanger'
If it was sold as a 'shooter' then maybe the dealer should be named & shamed.
What did you have to do to make it shootable ? or was it already shootable and you just cleaned it up ?
Pics would be useful.
The receiver exploded, and yet it was your left thumb that was damaged....?
Lets see some photos of the rifle.....
Hi Old Joe, Welcome and commiserations, I hope your recovery is swift. You have arrived at one of the sites where some of the worlds most respected enfielders spend time, advice you'll get here will be second to none.
I agree with the other comments too, pictures please, it will be really interesting to see.
What can you tell us about the rifles headspace?
BTW, A great deal of our interest here won't in passing judgements on what happened, even though I predict there might be moments when it might look like that, we do have a lot of interest though in being safe with our fine old rifles.
RJW
He's probably left-handed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbox
Dear o' deary me....................
Old Joe, sorry to hear of your mishap. This really needs a full investigation as to what happened and why and I think you will find many experts on this site that will help you from a distance. I would like to stress for your protection you should immediately contact your lawyer as loosing any part of your body is very serious and must be treated as such.
I am not a "get a lawyer" type of person however shooting a DP rifle is serious and the circumstances as to how it was sold to you etc. must be investigated promptly and properly.
Hope you have a speedy recovery.
Old Joe,
Glad your ok, and are lucky to walk away with only a sore thumb.
Think the the meaning of DP does come in to question depending where in the world you are (see link below), as most Enfield owners and shooters and dealers in the UK know, a .303 with DP on means exactly what it says on the tin, its a great shame when a dealer/seller can punt this out to an innocent victim like yourself as a shooter just to make a few quid, I have to ask, has the person in question been hung, drawn and quartered yet?
I bought a Mauser with a target barrel from a dealer couple years ago, the barrel was ok, but the action looked liked it had spent most of its life in a field until someone unearthed it, when I questioned the dealer, his answer was "its in proof" my answer was a lot more than plesant but in deleting the swear words and what i thought of him, the end result was something like:
" the condition would tell you that it wasnt fit to fire caps out of, never mind a 7.62mm round you .........."
The barrel is now turned down and in a different calibre, the action was scrapped. (and I informed other local RFD,s what a c..t he was)
Anyway back to DP...
When I mentioned the different parts of the world, it seems the M1903 DP, rifles are recovered to shooters in the USA, dont know what sanctions a DP rifle over there, maybe Ed can fill us in on the details, but for anyone who has a liking for the M1903 then have a look:
drill receivers unsafe to build?
I,ve got a DP 1917 SMLE No1 Mk111* which is converted to .410 shotgun and has the DP on the Reciever and on the Knox form (the barrel is not original to the rifle), and forward of this the wood has had two 1" vertical grind marks on each side, Anyone familar with the cuts?
I'm very sorry to hear about your accident. Dreadful. I am glad that it was not worse. I am also curious as to where you got the rifle from? Was it a commercial seller, or private?
You really do need a lawyer. DP's are never to be fired. Not a joke.
In the United States the Enfield rifle and all older milsurps are sold as an Antique and Curios (wall hangers) they are not required by law to have ANY inspections for safety, headspace, functional checks etc. or are they required to be re-proofed.
I believe the laws in the U.K. are much different and inspection and re-proofing are required, that being said you are at your own risk when buying milsurps in the U.S. unless you buy from dealers like Brian Dick who check and inspect what they sell.
The No.5 Enfield below was sold by a major U.S. Importer and this importer never even looked at this No.5 before it was sold.
Caveat emptor - "Let the buyer beware"
A Lawyer can't help you when the importers are protected by U.S. law. (when money talks, safety walks)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...No5rust1-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...No5rust2-1.jpg
Hello again folks and thank you for your Get Wells..
I went to go several hours ago and retrieved amung other things my DP MK3.. The Gun shop owner,a friend, was truely sick.. My Injury makes sence now ( Please understand after the bang I didn't really see the rifle.)
Someone in Demilling the Rifle removed the Barrel and drilled through the receiver, when they placed the stock back on the rifle the holes were say 60 percent obscured. Being inexsperienced with the Enfield I simply did not pick up on this. It was a beautifull rifle with a real nice bore.. As I bought the rifle the man who put them on consignment there said the reason they were so nice as the wepon was used for drill and the firing pins were removed.. A gunsmith looked them over and replaced the pins. DP was stamped every where and there was twp painted white bands on the rifle (I remember thinking it added character to the Rifle..)
Quite excited, I bought it from the shop and me and the man who owns the shop went firing the next day (I had run a brush through the Enfield the night before..nothing else).
When I fired the Enfield the the propelling gas simply used the new holes burning /blowing the top half of my thumb off along with the partial wood of the stock obscuring the hole. It is unusual that the Man had two DP Enfields at the store and the other had no such hole drilled through it.
If some one can show me I will post the pics...
Again thanks for your kind words..
Old Joe
Moderator Edit: Old Joe emailed pics and asked that we post them here for him. I've requested he try and get clearer, more focused ones, but these are a start.
Second Moderator Edit: Old Joe emailed pics better focused pics and I've those to the current ones for him.
What qualifies you to be a 'gunsmith' in your country ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Joe
Surely by any law / legislation a 'gunsmith' returning a 'wall hanger' (DP Rifle) to a 'usable' condition bears some responsibility.
In the UK we have legislation that covers "fit for pupose", your gunsmith was returning this to a shootable rifle that should have been 'fit for purpose' but obviously wasn't.
This legislation covers any goods, from a pen to an automobile, to toilet paper - it is nothing to do with 'proof' testing or any other firearm legislation.
Surely in the US (I presume you are in the USA) you must have something similar ?
Wow, seriously sorry that you had to get hurt for others to learn.
I beleive those holes were put there precisely to make it obvious that the rifle was now only a drill prop. Really incredible that a gunsmith simply replaced the firing pin and sent it along. Those are large holes and you can see clear through the chamber!
No disrespect old joe, but when you examined the bore of the barrel, did you not see the hole drilled through the breech?
Old Joe, seriously this should NEVER have happened and please get legal advice on what you should do.
I have a Pattern 1914 marked DP, but it has been thoroughly remanufactured (by Century no less) to be a very satisfactory 300 Win Mag hunting rifle. There is very little of the original rifle left, except the bolt, trigger and receiver.
But I also have a No.4 DP marked rifle that had a gorgeously figured maple stock that somebody woodrasped into a European toothpick style with deep reliefs off the stock wrist. It is deplorable, but it was only $25 for parts.
Your Enfield is a Century International Arms import and these rifles were clearly marked before sale as being DP rifles. The gunsmith who replaced the firing pin is at fault for not knowing what DP means "Do not fire".
Product ID: RI009DP-G
Enfield No. 1 Mk III British Deactivated Enfield Rifle, Cal. .303
These Enfield No. 1 Mk III rifles have had the firing pins broken and bolt faces welded. Some of the receivers have had holes drilled in them, others have been cut. 10 rd. detachable mag. “DP” has been stamped into various parts of these rifles. The rifles ARE NOT TO BE SHOT. These are still rifles under the GCA, so an FFL is required. Sold as a super parts value or historical wall hanger only. Condition: Good.
Click on the Century International Arms link below.
Home Page
Joe...do you know who this "gunsmith" is? He needs to be held accountable. I'm glad it wasn't any worse for you or anyone else, but it was in no way, shape, or form a catastrophic failure of a Lee Enfield. It behaved entirely as it was meant to if fired.
Thats a good question, so I will give you the checkered steps to my tragedy. I go to the Gun Shop and the owner who knows I love Milsurp says Mr Nameless just dropped off a Enfield and it just feels tight..(Nice)..I marvel at the outside of the rifle and drop the bolt looking from the muzzle with a bore light in the chamber..Beautiful rifling..I close the bolt and say "Wow nice piece" when Mr Nameless starts talking..I ask what DP means..I get the line of They are in such nice shape because they are Drill rifles and all he had to do is have a gunsmith ( I have used before)replace the firing pins ( Makes sense).Mr Nameless is famous for Springfield and Garand Parts and is was credible..I simply with that quick bore inspection from the muzzle did not pick up the holes..which where partially obscured by the stock...Now it is raining like hell outside so I pay for the rifle and tell my friend I will grab it tommorrow..He say "Hey let go to the range the day after tommorrow and fire it and some others"..So the day after I pick it up and dropping the bolt just run a brush threw a couple of time and a patch..I have three other rifles to get ready so this was in no way your down and dirty lets play with and figure out all the new parts on the Enfield (Oddly I would have researched the markings as well and saved myself a thumb).If I truly sat down to clean it I should have been sparked by the holes but again this being possible dmiled was the fathest thing from my mind...I may have had the rifle in my possession twenty-four hours..Next morning chamber a cartridge and bang..Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit plumber
I certainly feel like an *** myself..live and learn....
Old Joe
---------- Post added at 06:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:18 PM ----------
I absalutely agree to both your points...Quote:
Originally Posted by jrhead75
Old Joe
Well, that rifle was bought by the previous owner and he clearly knew it was drill purpose.
He admits to having someone replace the firing pin.
He's also the one who put it on consignment at the gun shop.
He's responsible for misleading you based on his statements that he sent it to a gunsmith.
You're responsible for believing him and not having your own knowledgeable gunsmith check it out.
He probably paid $80 for that rifle if he bought it direct from Century and who knows if he really paid someone to replace the firing pin.
I'm sure you paid more than $80 for the rifle but his profit and your loss equal legal action to me.
This isn't a simple accident based on what you've posted.
Old Joe
Thank you for the chronology of purchasing this rifle and again you need to tell this to your lawyer. I can not stress enough that someone in the chain of events needs to be held accountable for their actions. The firing pin should never have been replaced in this gun and your actions have the posibility of preventing such a incident again.
Old Joe, thanks for taking the time to share your story here despite the obvious obstacle to fast typing.
Hope you'll heal well and fast.
Lou
In hindsight this indervidual bought more than one (five to ten I would guess) and paid a gunsmith to modify them back to operational condition. he does a lot of rebuilding of Springfields and Garands for money this way. I know the old gunsmith he used and he simply missed the hole drilled into the chamber..partially because of the wood..partially because he is old, who knows. My brother is a lawyer. I will not sue him because I bought a curio from him that happened to malfunction. I am going to sue him because he sold a professionally Dmilled weapon representing it as a functional one. I will name him and the gunsmith in the suit . I will keep the boards posted on my journey however long or abruptly short. I will also promise to buy a real Enfield and post an M-Peg if possible of me firing it..All may cheer when I hopfully don't blow my other thumb off.Quote:
Originally Posted by enfield303t
Old Joe
Rather than open the door to a monotonously repeated string of falsehoods and opportunistic over-regulation as followed a similar accident in the UK, a quasi-military one dealt with elsewhere on this site, may I suggest a nice out of court settlement and we all forget all about it?
The "enemy" has enough ammunition already. I'd suggest we consider the larger scheme of things and what is to our real benefit.
That being said, I'm very sorry to hear about your injury.
As I read somewhere recently, "there is no such thing as a foolproof rifle and fools should leave them alone." (and I mean the "gunsmith" and the "dealer" who should have known better)
I'm afraid I've nothing kind to say about any of the other participants involved in this debacle, (excepting Century Arms- they are in no way accountable), but I must commend Old Joe in coming forward and sharing this experience in such detail. Perhaps he'll prevent another tragedy from occurring.
BTW, Old Joe, were you shooting the rifle from the standing position? I'm trying to cipher out how your thumb was positioned just so when operating the former ex-weapon.
AGAIN, you need a lawyer. That will stop this gun dealer AND his clueless "gunsmith". Get a lawyer!
I'm not so sure "lawyering up" would be best if Old Joe really does value his relationship w/ the gunshop owner. If the shop owner inspected the item personally it's "very bad", but maybe he did not...
As for the "gunsmith" and consignor, they should be banned from any further business w/ this establishment at a bare miimum. Figure out a way to have the "gunsmith's" license revoked. His name should be known if he is allowed to stay in business, so that others know to avoid him.
Horrors! Evilness.
I have a feeling that even if the shop owner is not initially involved w/ a suit, he'll still be drug into the ensuing fray. There
Look, and sorry to say this Joe, but Joe doesn't need a lawyer, he needs to take a good look at himself. What he did was buy a car that didn't have any brakes. He took it out onto the motorway and crashed it. Whoever buys a car without brakes and takes it on the road. Those whacking great holes were there when he bought it. Can you imagine going into court, taking someone on for a megga injury claim and telling the jodge that you looked down the bore and didn't see them and you didn't see the holes, albeit half covered by the fore-end.................. come off it - you'd be laughed all the way out of court with massive costs against you!
Now if Joe was a 17 year old with his first rifle, things might be different
Afraid I have to disagree - Joe bought the car (rifle) from a dealer, a mechanic (gunsmith) had serviced it (made it 'live') and it was sold as a 'runner' (shooter) It appears that this was Joe's first car (Enfield) and he didnt know what to look for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
On another forum a thread was running about a guy who had bought an Enfield then decided it was drilled thu' the action and so DP - it turned out that he was actually looking at the gas vent - everyone starts out knowing nothing.
Maybe Joe can expand on his firearms (and Enfields in particular) experience/knowledge
Still reckon it was 'not fit for purpose'.
I don't think anyone with any knowledge of firearms could mistake holes that size for a gas vent.
I'm sorry you got hurt Old Joe, but how did you not see that ?
Oh, my!
WHAT a mess!
First off, glad the injury was no worse, Old Joe, and do hope you make a speedy recovery. Lee-Enfield rifles are such fun; it's terrible to hear of something going amiss.
Part of the reason everyone is so very curious is that accidents of this magnitude with Lee-Enfields are just so VERY rare. The only one I can think of offhand which would compare with your experience was the accident which occurred around a fellow in rural Newfoundland when I was running a newspaper out there. His son fired a Number 4 with the BOLT-HEAD MISSING, this on the theory that the firing-pin should support the cartridge in the chamber. The wonderful surgeons at the James Paton Memorial Hospital in Gander got all the brass bits out of his son's eye and actually saved the eyesight. He brought the bolt to me to see if I had a new firing-pin for the thing, so I unscrewed the fired case from the bolt body, determined that the bolt body was split for nearly 2 inches and told him where to find another bolt. But that was the ONLY other accident of this type which I have encountered personally. Generally, the Lee-Enfield is among the very safest of rifles, this due in part to a simple and rugged design and in part to the exertions of responsible Armourers and Inspectors of the type which abound here on this forum, but are so rare anywhere else. They do their jobs well, adding to the near-incredible safety record of a truly marvellous piece of engineering.
Captain Laidler has good points in his argument, as does Alan de Enfield. The legal principle involved, that of selling known-defective equipment, goes back so far in the Common Law that it already was in the realm of folklore before the year 1000. That said, a certain amount of personal responsibility must also become involved. On Old Joe's side is the fact that, had the rifle been a Mauser, it would have been (marginally) safe to fire with those great holes in that precise location. What Old Joe does have going for him is that fact that he, personally, was new to the Lee Rifle. The SELLER has no such "out". He bought the rifle(s) knowing full well that they had been condemned, solicited their rebuilding into firing condition and then sold them. Old Joe now is paying the price for the SELLER's greed and cupidity.
Likely the gunsmith who did the work (at the Seller's behest) has been punished enough already. The vast majority of gunsmiths live in apprehension that THEY will ever become involved in such a mess and, when one does occur, they ARE affected by it, often very deeply. Nevertheless, he will have to be "named" in a suit, but the person who should be gone after, and most thoroughly, is the Seller.
Just my ha'pennyworth.
Again, my sympathies.
I do hope that Old Joe can find a GOOD Lee-Enfield to play with in the future. They are just TOO much fun to avoid.
.
The court case results can vary wildly depending on where Old Joe lives.
BTW, in the US the loser doesn't pay the court costs as in the UK, although it's a REALLY good idea. "The obvious" also doesn't divest the seller and enabler of responsiblity in most cases, which is also sad sometimes, but not here.
Hi Joe. *Sorry for your pain and suffering due to this accident...dreadful it had to happen no one deserves to get hurt
Being new to enfields as well, but not firearms, I'll give you my two cents, that and the fare will get you on a subway so take it for what it's worth!
I do not see this a a catastrophic failure of the rifle i.e. total/partial breech failure barrell burst metallurgical weakness etc. *What I see this as is more of an error in judgement*
There is enough blame to go around mainly with the seller and smith.*
But just as much for you, sorry to say....
The only persons that win in lost legal actions are the attorneys however that being said the seller and smith need to be held accountable for thier actions for they must know what they were doing or they were two fools
I am sure you will get a varying array of comments here and there about your actions in this matter. *Please note this will be a primer for you during your legal action because they will look harshly and depose you as such as well
Further, not knowing your experience with firearms and hindsight being twenty twenty. *I think you had a responsibility to detail strip the weapon yourself and inspect it before using it. *If you did you might have seen the very large out of place holes. You should have researched the type of firearm to see what it all the inspection marks mean I.e DP. WHITE BANDS ETC
Never take anyone word for anything. *Always check yourself as best you can prior to using it to at least satisfy youself to some degree.....reminds me of a lithgow mkiii I purchased :-)
Best of luck and get better soon and thank God it was not more serious and use this as a learning experience. *Pass this expereince on to others and use it as a Saftey example as well. These things are mechanical and we as users need to have more than just an operational knowledge such as insert round pull trigger. *A tad bit more investigation and knowledge and we might not be talking about it.....*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Hmmmm.....If I had walked into the odd gunshop and purchased this gun, I would have taken it to my regular Gunshop. We would have checked the head space and at the least I would have rigged it to the bench and fired a round..Just for this very reason. I also believe not knowing what the DP marks generously stamped on the rifle meant, I would have found out, out of curiosity. If this was the scenario and I did not do it well I got what I got and learned a lesson. I would have perhaps taken a good look at myself.
But I walked into my gunshop were the first thing I hear is "I got a beautifull Enfield for you to see.".I don't know Enfields but again my friend who owns the Gunshop,and knows rifles, did not see the hole in the breach. My quick putting the stock on the floor as I stuff a borelight in the chamber and peered suspiciously down the rifle muzzle would not show this either. BUT then the man who was selling the Enfield was there and is an extremely knowledegable man about weapons. He stated that DP means Drill rifle and that was why the bore was so nice. He stated that all that was wrong is that the firing pins had been removed so he had a gunsmith..(The same one who swaped a barral and sights on one of my Sporterized Springfields) go over them and replace all the firing pins. In my mind I just don't see the question.."OH can the Gunsmith,(who I would have used),go over the exact same weapon he modified to make sure it is safe..I don't feel it is wrong to assume he did. Because the man selling it said the gunsmith who I used did go over it.
I'm looking at myself now and don't quite see the idiot your trying to paint me..though yes I am missing a thumb...
If you buy a bunch of dmilled weapons and plan to sell them as shooters you have a responsibility that whoever dos the work is competent.
If your a Gunsmith and sombody gives you a bunch of DP junk to make shooters you have the responsibility to be very through in your work.
I do not exspect a gunshop owner to be an expert on Enfields and as a first time buyer to be an expert either. Please remember these holes escaped both the gunsmith and the Gunshop owner before me.
The gunsmith should certainly be the one taking a long look at himself...
Old Joe
Hi folks .. :)
Let's not beat a dead horse to death ...
Bottom line, please be careful out there and I really would hate to read about any more of these kinds of incidents, particularly in regards to the Enfield rifle, which I think is one of the best and safest designs of old milsurps available to collectors.
I was astonished to read about this incident, but I do have to give the Old Joe a LOT of credit for having the courage to speak and post pics of his accident. He could have just moved on and not mentioned this accident to anyone. ;)
I conversed with him via email and he's obviously embarrassed, but he really wanted to get the message out to other collectors, even at his own expense, just so the extreme importance of safety training and gaining knowledge before we go shooting any of our collectible pieces remained high, particularly for new collectors. :thup:
In my opinion, I do think a qualified gunsmith should have at least pointed out that this particular rifle was NOT to be fired. :nono:
However, regardless of fault, I appreciate him posting about this incident and again, I just thank God it wasn't worse.
Regards,
Doug
This should be up front in the "lessons learned" portion of this discussion, IMO. These old girls have in many cases lived a hard life after their service days, and there's never been a shortage of unscrupulous and/or unknowledgeable people willing to pass along problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickjc
I'd also like to add my thanks to Joe for having the courage to bring this here.
Do I have some responsibility in this ..Absalutely..I have been waiting to join a range in the area since I had just moved recently, and when my friend offered to sponser me( let me fire with him at the club) I jumped on the range time. I grabbed amungst other rifles my new Enfield but having not owned it 48 hrs and did not field strip it like I should have (And then gone on line to see how to put it back together :) ). Even the most minor research would have brought it right back to the gunshop. Except for me saying the hastyness of my first inspection, combined with the fact that the stock wood covered far more of the hole before it was fired, I have no real answer to how I missed the bored hole in the chamber. I do feel however that others share respnsibility as well.
If my experiance with this DP..(Which I think stands for Deep Poop) Enfield prevents one other amature Milsurp collector from going through what I did or becoming atleast more aware of what he is dealing with then I shall proudly remain the target of wagging fingers and sighs of disbelief for years to come..
Old Joe
It's easy to not see holes from the inside, if you're not looking for them. I was once shown a (known) amateur deactivation done by drilling a line of holes down the barrel and it was hard to spot even when you wanted to.
The pressure has taken the path of least resistance and ruptured the cartridge case on one side (luckily, not both). Those of us familiar with L-Es would 'probably' have caught this one before doing anything as far as firing it.
Moral:- If in doubt, ask. "There are no stupid questions, only stupid mistakes". When this thread has settled down some edited portion of it might usefully be made 'sticky'.
No doubt discussion about the moral responsibility, as distinct from the legal responsibility, will continue.
I have said, in every thread relating to this subject, that when we Armourers ZF or DP a rifle, it's always for a reason. Sometimes it's a reason that the average shooter can't see. Sometimes it's for a reason that your average 'gunsmith' can't understand. It could be for some specific master gauge failure or, another firm favourite, the induction hardened locking surfaces have failed -, but it's there for a reason. And it's not because it belongs to the Dublin Police or the Zimbabwe Forces either.
Listen and I'll say it again. Don't fire a DP or ZF marked rifle
Hi Peter,Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Well for those of us that are NOT Armourer's, it would be nice to know the basic steps/checklist that are taken when a rifle reaches ones bench as part of the overall assessment of the item in question.
Aside from a detail strip to check for the obvious abuse/condition/anomaly, what are the things that come to mind that the average person can do to inspect the weapon before the range and firing?
Look back to the thread I had on the No1 Mk111 that you so kindly commented on about yellow markings on AUS rifles. I was told the rifle was good to go..... So the easiest thing I could do was buy a Field Gauge. The rifle failed easily...what would/could have happened if it was fired? Dunno...don't want to know...!
A collective checklist of obvious and not so obvious visual and or gauge inspection items would be a nice thing to see!
Below is a link to a posting in another Enfield forum where a buyer is angry because he thinks he bought a defective Enfield rifle because it has a gas vent hole in the side of the receiver.
As a Quality Control Inspector we were taught the following.
"97% of all errors are human errors and only 3% are actual mechanical failures"
Major Enfield bummer!
http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/enf...ld-bummer.html
First, Old Joe, along with everyone else, I hope that you recover fast and find the time to enjoy another enfield.
I find myself only a small step ahead of where you were a week ago. I thought that I knew something about enfield rifles, until I started reading here. I've enjoyed the info here that those in the know have posted and shared. I would agree with nick, and maybe it is already out there, a checklist for the enfields so those of us who enjoy old rifles, yet don't have a long history with them, could use.
Get well quick Old Joe and thanks for sharing, and for me anyway, the heads up with what is possible.
"All the information in the world is written in books, and all you have to do is read"Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickjc
Below links to Badgers Lee Enfield On-line Knowledge Libraries (Index of Articles)
1991 No.4 (All Marks) .303 Rifle Maintenance Instructions
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=3322
Instructions for Armourers -1931 (Part 2 - Small Arms)
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=875
And one missing from the Knowledge Libraries :yikes:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ugefile1-1.jpg
On an aircraft you have a pre-flight inspection carried out by a trained and experienced mechanic who knows what he is looking at and what to look for during the inspection. When the pilot arrives he also does a walk around inspection of the aircraft before take off. At the end of the inspection the pilot signs the aircraft forms accepting the aircraft for flight.
Mr. Laidler was taught to be an Armourer and has years of experience, the rest of us are still in the learning phase and have much to learn.
A lesson to take away from all this is to ALWAYS disassemble any new milsurp and check it over for obvious faults BEFORE firing it. On Enfields, for example, there are a number of potential problems you can spot that could be problematic. Holes in the receiver are only one thing. Others include areas where welds have been ground away to make a firearm operable gain, Locking recesses that have been milled away as part of a demil job, disintegrated or badly cracked draws in the forestock are but a few.
I've seen some real horror stories over the years. A couple I saw recently included a Chinese military SKS where the knox form had a 1.5" long slot milled into the BOTTOM of it so it could only be seen with the forestock off. this was part of a large import batch and the dealer had no way of seeing it, but the owner caught the problem in a detail strip before firing.
Another was a Steyr M95 long rifle still in 8x50. Same issue, the bottom half of the knox form and part of the receiver ring was completely milled away, but it could still have been chambered and fired. A friend had me inspect it for him as he was going to reload for it and shoot it - only thing that prevented an earlier accident was the lack of available ammo!
What we should maybe do is start posting photos of demilled rifles and what features make them demilled and therefore unsafe and sticky it in the general discussion forum. Thoughts?
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Claven2
IMO not only demilled weapons but other area of interest for obvious fault or potential problem areas to search for failure.
Granted NOT ALL visual inspections can spot a failure waiting to happen...but a primer list of areas to inspect can go a long way to help others before they reach the firing line....
Just my .02
To say Old Joe has a responsibility here is absured. He has stated what he was told by the shop owner and the gun owner. We should inspect all our firearms but does that mean we trust the guy shooting next to us has done the same when he offers to let us shoot his new acquisition?? We all assume that a gun we purchase from a gun shop is in decent condition and yes common sense says take a very good look at it. If we distrust any and all guns then we should not shoot any other than our own. Old Joe is a VICTIM and should be treated as such.
The idea Old Joe would be laughed out of court is wrong, I remember the HUGE settlement to the person that bought a motorhome, put it on cruise control, left the drivers seat to go make a sandwich and crashed. Settlement was staggering and the defence was it didn't warn you in the manual you couldn't do that. Old Joe lives in the USA where litigation is viewed by some as a national sport.
This is a legitimate claim and would be judged as such.
Thank you for weighing in 303t, but I certainly owe it to myself to do as complete inspection as I can before I fire any weapon. I never knew the DMIL history behind the DP stamp so I would never imagine someone just drilling a hole completely through the chamber. The nice condition of the weapon gave me a perhaps false sense of security. Though it would have been nice with my diligence to catch the short commings of the gunsmith, he was paid to catch problems like these so yes I will attempt to hold him accountable on some level for the quality of his work. The Gunshop owner,a friend of mine, was with me when it happend and looked whiter than me..visited me in the hospital with his wife and has called me ever day to ask how I've been doing. he was as shocked as I was and had handled the weapon himself. My wife dropped me by the shop yesterday and I basicly said "Stuff happens." and bought a Charter arms 44 special since I wont be shooting rifle for a month or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by enfield303t
I will make sure to PM you with the results of my future efforts and I think a pre check list for Enfields or any mllsurp would be great.
Old Joe
303t, I know it's getting off the subject a tad but I think a quick internet search will pull up that the motorhome saga was an urban myth. A veriation exists but nothing like the urban myth that has been doing the rounds for 20 years now. But if it was a motorhome that didn't have any brakes............................................ .
Having re-read this thread, I noticed that Joe says the seller actually bought 20 of these DP'd rifles.
I hope that the seller has been notified of the dangerous condition and these remaining rifles have not been put up for sale.
I'd hate to see anyone else get hurt.
I believe he had a gunsmith modifiy between 5-10 to sell. I bought mine so quickly that he left a second rifle he had in the car at my friends shop. When the situation happened and my friend got back to the shop he called the seller to inform him of what happened and gave him the second one back. The second was identical to the first except there was no hole bored in the chamber.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amatikulu
Old Joe
Maybe it would be helpful if the title of this thread were changed from "Enfield Catastrophic Failure..." to "Human Judgment Failure." Of course that would deprive the topic of significant sensationalism since human judgment failures are tediously commonplace while the various firearms labeled "Enfield" fail very seldom unless misused by humans displaying poor judgment.
It seems the Internet is full of "expert" advice which just adds more confusion to the meaning of what is a DP rifle.
Surplusrifle Forum View topic - reactivating drill purpose rifle
Yes, well.... surplusrifle.com is NOT milsurps.com ;)
Sorry don't agree that was a myth, neither was the one of the airplane that landed on a road beside the highway with engine failure..someone was distracted and crashed looking at the plane....sued the engine manufacturer and won... It is the USA, litigation is on a different level there.
Ah, the old TRter and his masterclass. I tried to graduate as many as I could, but got burned at the stake as a witch. You may have noticed my cryptic referral to the knuckle draggers early on here...Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Horton
I was tempted to make reference to your good friend Turkey:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Son
What are the odds he'll turn up unannounced at Lithgow in a couple of weeks time?:ugh:
Two questions.. Is there a season for them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithy
Are there any caliber restrictions?
Might have an update on the Omark situation soon... got a lead...
Oh, posted your package this arvo.
This forum has been a great help in putting my incident in prospective, not only pointing the fingers at others but pointing them at myself. I have changed the Topic name simply out of respect for the rifle itself which is not to blame. Meeting most of you and sensing how proud you are of the rifle has given me a real drive to pick up a proper one and squeaze some rounds off. The best way ofcourse for litigation advice is a lawyer from the state and country I am in.Do not mistake me for someone who rushes to court on the slightest whim,I have never sued anyone, however, if someone else is also responsible so be it. Maybe the Topic should have been labled Dumbass militerizes DP Enfield,other dumbass shoots it. Health wise I am healing nicely and the nerve pain has deminished significantly. I will certainly be back on the range sooner than later. I will certainly update this thread with any litigation results and an off picture of me actually shooting a Enfield and not loosing a body part. For those who truely wished me well I thank you and look foward to interacting with you when I start blasting away with a "Proper weapon"
Very
Sincerly..
Old Joe
Good luck with it, Old Joe, whatever you decide.
In the meantime this thread has probably progressed to an end, but don't disappear. Do some study and follow some other threads. You might find something here that points you toward a particular model... enjoy :cheers:
Hi, Old Joe.
I am glad to see that this has not put you off shooting and you are getting back in the saddle so to speak so soon.
It is completely up to you how you proced with all of this.
There is so much advice here. Be it great, OK , so so, and knee jurk.
But the lesson / WARNING goes out to every one
Check over every fire arme you buy, regardless of its markings ore what any one says, Your life and the life of others depends on it.
With the slack and poor proof regs in some countries allowing incompidents to make changes to arms, it is expecialy inportant.
I congratulate you for your courage and thought for others in starting this thread, regardless of the harsh opinion of others
There are not many people in this world who would or could have started it
Be proud of your action in a large step in protecting others in thee shooting world.
WELL DONE.
Look after your self. There are also times that you DO need to put yourself first.
Just a historical question for our US cousins:
Proof testing & marking of firearms seems such an obvious precaution that it has been law across most of Europe and Russia since the 17th/18th centuries - I'd guess it must be one of the oldest forms of government quality certification still going. Most countries also made certification of the firearms the legal liability of the vendor.
How is it that the US - especially with its huge firearms market - never introduced either a federal compulsory testing regime or specific liability to gun dealers? Early US administrations quickly copied virtually all other aspects of government controls, so it seems strange that firearms proof wasn't included. It doesn't even seem to be an issue of State or personal freedom - the common-sense need for proof has never been contentious in any kind of society across the rest of the world.
I know it's off track a bit Thunderbox, but this case wasn't to do with proofing, but (and sorry to say it again Joe.......) but all to do with what we call ' the bleedin obvious.....'
I believe to many "The bleeding obvious" is defined by their familiiarity with the situation or item in question. No doubt your expertise and passion for the Enfield and perhaps fire arms in general has made you a poor choice for the "bleeding obvious" when it comes to an amateur Milsurp enthusiast and his thoughts when he handles an Enfield for the first time. I do feel confident as I lay my weary head on the pillow each night that the 'The Bleeding Obvious" was not obvious to the old gun smith who worked the weapon before me, or the middle man who had them militerized, or even the gunshop owner who handled the weapon before me..all of which together must have some 120 years of fire arm exsperience. As the middleman blathered his false pedigree about DP Enfields, and I stuffed the bore light in the chamber peering down the muzzle at an incredible bore it never came to my mind.."Hey I bet someone drilled through the chamber of this nice rifle." And looking down the muzzle with a bore light you cannot see the holes. I also cannot recreate the stock and its partial coverage of them before the weapon fired or my utter confidence in the people who had handled the weapon before me. Bringing it home the next day I simply ran a bore brush through a spotless rifle and sprayed the action with a little Remington oil, after all a competent gun smith had just worked the weapon and I had two more rifles to get ready for the range. I may have handled this weapon a half hour at most before I fired it. You were not there when I handled the weapon,you are not in the least familiar with the qualifications or lack there of of the people I interacted with, and last but not least you are unfamiliar with the lighting and length in which I handled the weapon. I think what is obvious is that with a little bad luck and mis information this Dp Enfield could have bitten a few more people than me. Don't worry Peter your still special in this little forum without tearing people down...Old JoeQuote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Thread Closed to Posting !!
Ok, so I'm going to close this thread down now, as I think that after 8 pages, everything that could have been said, has been said .... and we're now into repeating ourselves .... :)
Good thread and good lessons to be remembered by everyone .... ;)
A big thank you to everyone for contributing their questions and opinions to the thread's content ... :cheers:
Regards,
Doug