Combining a DP Enfield, a Shooter and a Gunsmith ended up with catastrophic failure!

[smellie]

Oh, my!

WHAT a mess!

First off, glad the injury was no worse, Old Joe, and do hope you make a speedy recovery. Lee-Enfield rifles are such fun; it's terrible to hear of something going amiss.

Part of the reason everyone is so very curious is that accidents of this magnitude with Lee-Enfields are just so VERY rare. The only one I can think of offhand which would compare with your experience was the accident which occurred around a fellow in rural Newfoundland when I was running a newspaper out there. His son fired a Number 4 with the BOLT-HEAD MISSING, this on the theory that the firing-pin should support the cartridge in the chamber. The wonderful surgeons at the James Paton Memorial Hospital in Gander got all the brass bits out of his son's eye and actually saved the eyesight. He brought the bolt to me to see if I had a new firing-pin for the thing, so I unscrewed the fired case from the bolt body, determined that the bolt body was split for nearly 2 inches and told him where to find another bolt. But that was the ONLY other accident of this type which I have encountered personally. Generally, the Lee-Enfield is among the very safest of rifles, this due in part to a simple and rugged design and in part to the exertions of responsible Armourers and Inspectors of the type which abound here on this forum, but are so rare anywhere else. They do their jobs well, adding to the near-incredible safety record of a truly marvellous piece of engineering.

Captain Laidler has good points in his argument, as does Alan de Enfield. The legal principle involved, that of selling known-defective equipment, goes back so far in the Common Law that it already was in the realm of folklore before the year 1000. That said, a certain amount of personal responsibility must also become involved. On Old Joe's side is the fact that, had the rifle been a Mauser, it would have been (marginally) safe to fire with those great holes in that precise location. What Old Joe does have going for him is that fact that he, personally, was new to the Lee Rifle. The SELLER has no such "out". He bought the rifle(s) knowing full well that they had been condemned, solicited their rebuilding into firing condition and then sold them. Old Joe now is paying the price for the SELLER's greed and cupidity.

Likely the gunsmith who did the work (at the Seller's behest) has been punished enough already. The vast majority of gunsmiths live in apprehension that THEY will ever become involved in such a mess and, when one does occur, they ARE affected by it, often very deeply. Nevertheless, he will have to be "named" in a suit, but the person who should be gone after, and most thoroughly, is the Seller.

Just my ha'pennyworth.

Again, my sympathies.

I do hope that Old Joe can find a GOOD Lee-Enfield to play with in the future. They are just TOO much fun to avoid.
.

[jmoore]

The court case results can vary wildly depending on where Old Joe lives.

BTW, in the US the loser doesn't pay the court costs as in the UK, although it's a REALLY good idea. "The obvious" also doesn't divest the seller and enabler of responsiblity in most cases, which is also sad sometimes, but not here.

[Nickjc]

Hi Joe. *Sorry for your pain and suffering due to this accident...dreadful it had to happen no one deserves to get hurt

Being new to enfields as well, but not firearms, I'll give you my two cents, that and the fare will get you on a subway so take it for what it's worth!

I do not see this a a catastrophic failure of the rifle i.e. total/partial breech failure barrell burst metallurgical weakness etc. *What I see this as is more of an error in judgement*

There is enough blame to go around mainly with the seller and smith.*
But just as much for you, sorry to say....

The only persons that win in lost legal actions are the attorneys however that being said the seller and smith need to be held accountable for thier actions for they must know what they were doing or they were two fools

I am sure you will get a varying array of comments here and there about your actions in this matter. *Please note this will be a primer for you during your legal action because they will look harshly and depose you as such as well

Further, not knowing your experience with firearms and hindsight being twenty twenty. *I think you had a responsibility to detail strip the weapon yourself and inspect it before using it. *If you did you might have seen the very large out of place holes. You should have researched the type of firearm to see what it all the inspection marks mean I.e DP. WHITE BANDS ETC

Never take anyone word for anything. *Always check yourself as best you can prior to using it to at least satisfy youself to some degree.....reminds me of a Lithgow mkiii I purchased :-)

Best of luck and get better soon and thank God it was not more serious and use this as a learning experience. *Pass this expereince on to others and use it as a Saftey example as well. These things are mechanical and we as users need to have more than just an operational knowledge such as insert round pull trigger. *A tad bit more investigation and knowledge and we might not be talking about it.....*

[Old Joe]

but Joe doesn't need a lawyer, he needs to take a good look at himself.

Hmmmm.....If I had walked into the odd gunshop and purchased this gun, I would have taken it to my regular Gunshop. We would have checked the head space and at the least I would have rigged it to the bench and fired a round..Just for this very reason. I also believe not knowing what the DP marks generously stamped on the rifle meant, I would have found out, out of curiosity. If this was the scenario and I did not do it well I got what I got and learned a lesson. I would have perhaps taken a good look at myself.

But I walked into my gunshop were the first thing I hear is "I got a beautifull Enfield for you to see.".I don't know Enfields but again my friend who owns the Gunshop,and knows rifles, did not see the hole in the breach. My quick putting the stock on the floor as I stuff a borelight in the chamber and peered suspiciously down the rifle muzzle would not show this either. BUT then the man who was selling the Enfield was there and is an extremely knowledegable man about weapons. He stated that DP means Drill rifle and that was why the bore was so nice. He stated that all that was wrong is that the firing pins had been removed so he had a gunsmith..(The same one who swaped a barral and sights on one of my Sporterized Springfields) go over them and replace all the firing pins. In my mind I just don't see the question.."OH can the Gunsmith,(who I would have used),go over the exact same weapon he modified to make sure it is safe..I don't feel it is wrong to assume he did. Because the man selling it said the gunsmith who I used did go over it.

I'm looking at myself now and don't quite see the idiot your trying to paint me..though yes I am missing a thumb...

If you buy a bunch of dmilled weapons and plan to sell them as shooters you have a responsibility that whoever dos the work is competent.

If your a Gunsmith and sombody gives you a bunch of DP junk to make shooters you have the responsibility to be very through in your work.

I do not exspect a gunshop owner to be an expert on Enfields and as a first time buyer to be an expert either. Please remember these holes escaped both the gunsmith and the Gunshop owner before me.

The gunsmith should certainly be the one taking a long look at himself...

Old Joe

[Badger]

Hi folks ..

Let's not beat a dead horse to death ...

Bottom line, please be careful out there and I really would hate to read about any more of these kinds of incidents, particularly in regards to the Enfield Rifle, which I think is one of the best and safest designs of old milsurps available to collectors.

I was astonished to read about this incident, but I do have to give the Old Joe a LOT of credit for having the courage to speak and post pics of his accident. He could have just moved on and not mentioned this accident to anyone.

I conversed with him via email and he's obviously embarrassed, but he really wanted to get the message out to other collectors, even at his own expense, just so the extreme importance of safety training and gaining knowledge before we go shooting any of our collectible pieces remained high, particularly for new collectors.

In my opinion, I do think a qualified gunsmith should have at least pointed out that this particular rifle was NOT to be fired.

However, regardless of fault, I appreciate him posting about this incident and again, I just thank God it wasn't worse.

Regards,
Doug

[jrhead75]

...detail strip the weapon yourself and inspect it before using it.

This should be up front in the "lessons learned" portion of this discussion, IMO. These old girls have in many cases lived a hard life after their service days, and there's never been a shortage of unscrupulous and/or unknowledgeable people willing to pass along problems.

I'd also like to add my thanks to Joe for having the courage to bring this here.

[Old Joe]

Do I have some responsibility in this ..Absalutely..I have been waiting to join a range in the area since I had just moved recently, and when my friend offered to sponser me( let me fire with him at the club) I jumped on the range time. I grabbed amungst other rifles my new Enfield but having not owned it 48 hrs and did not field strip it like I should have (And then gone on line to see how to put it back together ). Even the most minor research would have brought it right back to the gunshop. Except for me saying the hastyness of my first inspection, combined with the fact that the stock wood covered far more of the hole before it was fired, I have no real answer to how I missed the bored hole in the chamber. I do feel however that others share respnsibility as well.

If my experiance with this DP..(Which I think stands for Deep Poop) Enfield prevents one other amature Milsurp collector from going through what I did or becoming atleast more aware of what he is dealing with then I shall proudly remain the target of wagging fingers and sighs of disbelief for years to come..

Old Joe

[Mk VII]

It's easy to not see holes from the inside, if you're not looking for them. I was once shown a (known) amateur deactivation done by drilling a line of holes down the barrel and it was hard to spot even when you wanted to.
The pressure has taken the path of least resistance and ruptured the cartridge case on one side (luckily, not both). Those of us familiar with L-Es would 'probably' have caught this one before doing anything as far as firing it.
Moral:- If in doubt, ask. "There are no stupid questions, only stupid mistakes". When this thread has settled down some edited portion of it might usefully be made 'sticky'.
No doubt discussion about the moral responsibility, as distinct from the legal responsibility, will continue.

[Peter Laidler]

I have said, in every thread relating to this subject, that when we Armourers ZF or DP a rifle, it's always for a reason. Sometimes it's a reason that the average shooter can't see. Sometimes it's for a reason that your average 'gunsmith' can't understand. It could be for some specific master gauge failure or, another firm favourite, the induction hardened locking surfaces have failed -, but it's there for a reason. And it's not because it belongs to the Dublin Police or the Zimbabwe Forces either.

Listen and I'll say it again. Don't fire a DP or ZF marked rifle

[Nickjc]

I have said, in every thread relating to this subject, that when we Armourers ZF or DP a rifle, it's always for a reason. Sometimes it's a reason that the average shooter can't see. Sometimes it's for a reason that your average 'gunsmith' can't understand. It could be for some specific master gauge failure or, another firm favourite, the induction hardened locking surfaces have failed -, but it's there for a reason. And it's not because it belongs to the Dublin Police or the Zimbabwe Forces either.

Listen and I'll say it again. Don't fire a DP or ZF marked rifle

Hi Peter,

Well for those of us that are NOT Armourer's, it would be nice to know the basic steps/checklist that are taken when a rifle reaches ones bench as part of the overall assessment of the item in question.

Aside from a detail strip to check for the obvious abuse/condition/anomaly, what are the things that come to mind that the average person can do to inspect the weapon before the range and firing?

Look back to the thread I had on the No1 Mk111 that you so kindly commented on about yellow markings on AUS rifles. I was told the rifle was good to go..... So the easiest thing I could do was buy a Field Gauge. The rifle failed easily...what would/could have happened if it was fired? Dunno...don't want to know...!

A collective checklist of obvious and not so obvious visual and or gauge inspection items would be a nice thing to see!