5.7 Johnson and M1 Carbine

I just found this forum yesterday when searching 5.7 Johnson (5.7 MMJ and .22 Spitfire) and found the thread below fascinating. However it was requested I not revive a thread years old. So here is a new one regarding the same subject.

First, the 5.7 MMJ was designed by Melvin Johnson for a 40 grain bullet, 50 grain maximum. The 30 Carbine case is just a bit small to get the full potential from a 55 grain bullet. It was loaded originally with 12.5 grains of 4227 powder, 40 grain soft nosed bullet (.22 Hornet), to about 2800 fps, with a 1/16 twist. This information comes from Ed Johnson, Melvin's youngest son, and who actually tried to bring that project to fruition after Melvin died. He can be found on "The Johnson Rifle Site" as the sites originator and owner. Ed has stated that they made right around 200 original Johnson Carbines and they actually sold at a loss in order to get the business going. I load the cartridge myself and use either 35 or 40 grain bullets with a charge of 12 grains of H110 for the two and it does pretty well for accuracy and it is a hot little cartridge that is hands over fist better than the FN 5.7x28 and if used in an M2 Carbine is an awesome package.

To build a 5.7 Johnson carbine you need a barrel (made by several different business's after Johnson's company folded due to lack of orders) and to re-profile the feed ramp for the cartridge. The feed ramp is the tricky part as I've never seen a drawing or a decent description of how that's done. Plainfield Machine made some later, as did Iver Johnson, IAI, and Fulton Armory. Unfortunately it never generated enough interest when those company's were making those carbines and that's a shame as it is a tremendous cartridge for the platform it was designed for. Of the carbines manufactured for the 5.7 Johnson obviously the original carbines are the best to have but they are getting as rare as fangs on a chicken. I've heard the Fulton Armory carbines were of good quality but have never seen one. The IAI and Iver Johnson had quality problems, which is the primary reason they weren't so successful. I've an original Johnson and an IAI carbine, the Johnson is of a higher quality though it used an aluminum cast trigger housing that Ed Johnson sourced from Plainfield Machine. It was due to the collapse of Johnson that Plainfield even started making M1 Carbines in the first place. A stock of unsold parts destined for others.

It has been claimed that the government bought some Plainfield carbines for use by security contractors, however I find that hard to believe as the federal government has huge stocks of M1 Carbines in storage and has been receiving them back for years from foreign country's that were given some later, it makes little sense to buy more from an upstart and new company. I don't know how some of those receivers ended up at the CMP but they were never in service with our military. Anyway, the 5.7 Johnson is a good cartridge and it's performance is greater than it's size and weight.

https://www.milsurps.com/newreply.ph...reply&p=266241

https://www.johnsonautomatics.com/

i thin k this one just got lost in the cracks of time. The cartridge wasn't a success at the time when they had just passed the .30 cal and were trying 7.62, and 5.56 was just looming too. All this and three wars in a short time, over a twenty year period and it was forgotten. I would like to try a carbine in that chamber but they are all but unobtanium here in Canada and a registered trial experiment isn't much fun here, not with our overseers.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

i think this one just got lost in the cracks of time. The cartridge wasn't a success at the time when they had just passed the .30 cal and were trying 7.62, and 5.56 was just looming too. All this and three wars in a short time, over a twenty year period and it was forgotten. I would like to try a carbine in that chamber but they are all but unobtanium here in Canada and a registered trial experiment isn't much fun here, not with our overseers.

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I'd have to agree with you. It is weird though that in the last 20 to 30 years the firearms industry has created many new small caliber cartridges but the 5.7 Johnson hasn't seen a revival. I believe that if a company would make a new version (especially in stainless steel) it would see a resurgence. As long as people stayed within the parameters of the original design and factory ammunition was available. I would point out though that Ed Johnson has stated in the past one of the reasons the cartridge initially failed was that Johnson had a hard time trying to get anybody to make factory ammunition for it. Those that did didn't make much, so ammunition was a problem. And most people don't want to spent the time and effort to "roll" their own. One of my dreams for years has been an M2 Carbine in 5.7 MMJ. With decent magazines and not that imported rubbish.

Video: 5.7 mm Johnson Spitfire Carbine | American Rifleman | Official Journal Of The NRA

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Originally Posted by eb in oregon

With decent magazines

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USGI... I'd just make my own anyway. Probably just gas check cast and as heavy as I could find for a mould.

Years go I read an article wherein the author made up a 5.7 on a carbine. He cut the barrel off outboard from the gas block, bored out the stump, and sleeved in a .22 barrel. Did it this way to preserve the slide grooves in the barrel.

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Originally Posted by tiriaq

Years go I read an article wherein the author made up a 5.7 on a carbine. He cut the barrel off outboard from the gas block, bored out the stump, and sleeved in a .22 barrel. Did it this way to preserve the slide grooves in the barrel.

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That individual may have done so when barrels were difficult to come by and I recall once seeing something the same. Conversions of .30 caliber barrels to a smaller caliber by boring out the original barrel and sleeving. And too if the proper twist rate is used I see little difficulty in using a .22 liner. Some liners have thicker walls than others and probably can be used to change caliber.

As for the issue of Plainfield's being used by the US government this might help clear up the picture.

Plainfield Machine Company

The government at one point had many hundreds of thousands of carbines in storage. They started giving and selling these as assistance to many friendly governments. Vietnam was the major source of carbines being sent to friendly countries and the South Korea too. Both got many hundreds of thousands of carbine. So many were used that there were none available for use here. Thailand is a prime example of not enough carbines to go around. Contracts with Howa in Japan were made and surplus WW2 equipment was sent to Howa to make carbines. 10,000+ carbines were made and sent to Thailand. Police agencies with in the military had no access to carbines so the next thing was contracts to the likes of Plainfield to supply these needs. These were later sold off as surplus to the militaries needs. But any county that was anti-Communist got carbines.

I have no idea how many carbines Plainfield made, but I'm sure they didn't make their own carbine until Millville Ordnance (a company Plainfield was supplying parts) folded and they were left with a bunch of parts, so Plainfield started making them under their name. I'll also conjecture that any carbines that Plainfield made was a direct response to a contract for other governments purchasing them and our government did no more than rubber stamp the contract and ability to export to those governments. As for Plainfield receivers ending up at the CMP it was more likely that when those firearms were collected from the users that no attention was paid to manufacturer and they were just collected and crated, then returned. I've read nothing that stated or suggested that Plainfield ever had a contract to supply M1 Carbines directly to the US government.

I still have a screwdriver marked Millville Ordnance which they gave you with a large parts order.

I always heard the 5,7mm was 40gr bullet @ 3000 fps and that was published

There was also another carbine wildcat called the 30 Kurtz using a 308 case cut down to 33 mm and necked down
to 30 cal. required a new barrel, never really got off the ground

The contracts were made. Many were in armories of base police after military personal no long stood guard duty at the gates to bases. I have seen them there over the years along with M14 rifles. Back in 1991 the M14 rifles were recalled. Went to play in the sand box. Several years later the carbines were taken away and replaced with M16 rifles. A lot of carbines were sent to Capt. Crunch too. Many were put into piles, covered with diesel and sent afire. When the fire was out an M60 tank was used to roll over the pile again and again till nothing was left useable. Just twisted piles of blacked metal.

Come to think of it, I have a Plainfield barrel which had an extension installed to comply with previous Canadian law. As is, it is worthless. It would be a good candidate to alter into a 19" .22 barrel.

Guys on the CMP Forum brought up the 5.7
5.7 Spitfire carbine - CMP Forums

One linked a barrel from Numrich for sale:
Barrel, Conversion, .22 Cal. Wildcat (5.7mm Johnson) | Gun Parts Corp.

BARREL, CONVERSION, .22 CAL. WILDCAT (5.7MM JOHNSON)
$242.00

FWIW

Hi all! This is my first post. I've gotten a ton of great info so far. I really appreciate all the knowledge that is shared here. To the Johnson spitfire thread... I should have figured the feed ramp would be different. Kind of making me rethink re-barreling to .30 cal when the ammo for the spitfire runs out. Great gun to shoot but the ammo right now, if you can find it, is pricey. 50 rounds are around $100 plus shipping. I have the cartridges and bullets but no idea how to reload. Might be time to figure it out.

You will find that you can reform existing cases to make new Spitfire cases once you get into reloading. A basic set-up can be had for around $150 dollars. Once you learn reload, you'll find it doesn't really save you any money, but you'll do a lot more shooting for the same $! Warning....reloading is addictive! BTW, you should be able to cut the cost for your ammo to around 25 to 30 cents per round. Won't take long to recover your initial costs. You may have to custom order your dies. They might be a bit more expensive than standard dies, but they will be worth the money.

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Originally Posted by jimb16

You will find that you can reform existing cases to make new Spitfire cases once you get into reloading. A basic set-up can be had for around $150 dollars. Once you learn reload, you'll find it doesn't really save you any money, but you'll do a lot more shooting for the same $! Warning....reloading is addictive! BTW, you should be able to cut the cost for your ammo to around 25 to 30 cents per round. Won't take long to recover your initial costs. You may have to custom order your dies. They might be a bit more expensive than standard dies, but they will be worth the money.

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Thanks, I appreciate it. I have a ton of johnson cases already and a whole lot of .30 cal cases as well. I'm going to look into getting the dies.

Mister Johnson figured out a long time ago that the M1 carbine action can handle many other calibers. I have been fortunate enough to build a 9x19 that runs wonderfully. It was really fun when 9mm could be had for as little as 10-cents, but it’s still fun to shoot. I am pondering taking the leap to the Spitfire.

5.7 Johnson firearms and reloading supplies are still available, but rare. Only about 200 original Johnson "Spitfire" carbines were made by Melvin Johnson's son's. The market to convert rifles never panned out and the cartridge never caught on. It was before it's time. CH4D makes reloading dies and case forming dies. You'd have to contact them about current price and delivery date.

There is an IAI 5.7MMJ being offered on Gunbroker, but the company (or guy) want's more than twice what it's worth (IMHO), so it won't sell anytime soon. Iver Johnson made a few, but the quality of those carbines (as well as IAI) is suspect. There were issues with both manufacturers regarding barrel twist and quality control. It's not a straight forward conversion. The feed ramp of the .30 Carbine receiver needs to be modified and if done incorrectly your receiver is ruined and it won't feed properly. Then too the twist rate of the original 5.7MMJ Carbine was 1/16 and the others have a faster twist rate which doesn't stabilize 40 grain projectiles well, which is about the heaviest bullet that the cartridge was designed to handle. Wikipedia's information is incorrect in that regard as Ed Johnson himself has stated that the twist rate was 1/16 for Johnson's Carbines and it was originally designed for 40 grain projectiles, 50 grain at the absolute maximum.

Forums - Johnson Rifle Site Bulletin Board

As i know 5,7mm was 40gr bullet @ 3000 fps and that was published

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Originally Posted by eb in oregon

5.7 Johnson firearms and reloading supplies are still available, but rare. Only about 200 original Johnson "Spitfire" carbines were made by Melvin Johnson's son's. The market to convert rifles never panned out and the cartridge never caught on. It was before it's time. CH4D makes reloading dies and case forming dies. You'd have to contact them about current price and delivery date.

There is an IAI 5.7MMJ being offered on Gunbroker, but the company (or guy) want's more than twice what it's worth (IMHO), so it won't sell anytime soon. Iver Johnson made a few, but the quality of those carbines (as well as IAI) is suspect. There were issues with both manufacturers regarding barrel twist and quality control. It's not a straight forward conversion. The feed ramp of the .30 Carbine receiver needs to be modified and if done incorrectly your receiver is ruined and it won't feed properly. Then too the twist rate of the original 5.7MMJ Carbine was 1/16 and the others have a faster twist rate which doesn't stabilize 40 grain projectiles well, which is about the heaviest bullet that the cartridge was designed to handle. Wikipedia's information is incorrect in that regard as Ed Johnson himself has stated that the twist rate was 1/16 for Johnson's Carbines and it was originally designed for 40 grain projectiles, 50 grain at the absolute maximum.

Forums - Johnson Rifle Site Bulletin Board

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Eric, is the Johnson Forum active? I have tried to log in there but haven't been able to. I have one of the original 5.7 Johnson built carbines.

Dan, there was a recent discussion about the 5.7 Johnson on the CCC forum. See the below link.
5.7 MMJ Carbine PMC - The Carbine Collector's Club - Page 2

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Originally Posted by Trooperdan

is the Johnson Forum active? I have tried to log in there but haven't been able to. I have one of the original 5.7 Johnson built carbines.

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It is. If you're having difficulties registering see if you can PM Ed Johnson.

http://www.johnsonautomatics.com/

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

i thin k this one just got lost in the cracks of time. The cartridge wasn't a success at the time when they had just passed the .30 cal and were trying 7.62, and 5.56 was just looming too. All this and three wars in a short time, over a twenty year period and it was forgotten. I would like to try a carbine in that chamber but they are all but unobtanium here in Canada and a registered trial experiment isn't much fun here, not with our overseers.

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I'm with you Jim, love to try one, it's a facinating calibre and it would make a potent, handy little Carbine, especially in am M1A1 stock.

Mr Johnson even tried to interest US Ordnance in his 5.7mm cartridge (40 gr bullet at 3000 fps) while they were working on the 22/7,62x51 testing,
but along came the 222 Rem Special & Winchester 224E2 which cancelled out everything else

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

i thin k this one just got lost in the cracks of time. The cartridge wasn't a success at the time when they had just passed the .30 cal and were trying 7.62, and 5.56 was just looming too. All this and three wars in a short time, over a twenty year period and it was forgotten. I would like to try a carbine in that chamber but they are all but unobtanium here in Canada and a registered trial experiment isn't much fun here, not with our overseers.

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It didn't get "lost," the main issue was (and still is) the lack of available commercial ammunition. Ed Johnson couldn't get any major ammunition manufacturer to produce ammunition. Ed tried to make it himself but couldn't produce it fast enough. He had quality problems with several smaller producers, and due to the lack of ammunition orders didn't come in fast enough to stay in business. The cartridge is a good one, but the ammunition problem hasn't gotten any better. Even if today a guy tried to re-introduce the carbine it suffers from the same issue, lack of ammunition. And rifles where one has to "roll his own" have a very small market.

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Originally Posted by eb in oregon

And rifles where one has to "roll his own" have a very small market.

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You got that right. I wouldn't worry, just make my own but I've done enough to not worry about it. The carbine here is restricted so, papers and the mags are five round. Takes all the fun out of it.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

The carbine here is restricted so, papers and the mags are five round. Takes all the fun out of it.

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You got that right.

Restricted on the basis of barrel length, so if a carbine were being made up, a long enough barrel would solve that problem. At least for the time being...

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Originally Posted by tiriaq

At least for the time being...

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Far too much to deal with in terms of a fun gun. This too will get deeper shortly so I wouldn't get back into a carbine for anything.

Without straying into the political arena, I think we've all been shocked at the speed of new fireams restrictions in Canada, they don't seem to be letting up either...

I am certain that I posted this short story before: soon after the 5,7 and 22 Carbine Wildcat cartridges found their way into surplus M1 carbines a gunsmith offered a "kit" (not cheap) to convert your carbine in a 7,62x33 mm Kurz caliber using 308 Win cases shortened to fit the carbine magazine with a 110 gr bullet. This kit, as I remember, included a longer barrel with the gas port moved forward, the slide was modified and bolt face opened-up completely, This also included a long recoil spring. A friend asked me to help him complete this conversion on a cheap DCM carbine and I told him that I wanted no part of this project. my photo shows the 5,7mm carbine and 30 Kurz cartridges (my kurz cartridge photo was also used by Cartridges of the World some years ago)

The 7,92x33 still lives as I saw a conversion of the AR-15 to use this cartridge, custom 8mm barrel with kurz chamber plus gages (around $800 ?) and still without a working magazine !

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Originally Posted by RCS

A friend asked me to help him complete this conversion on a cheap DCM carbine and I told him that I wanted no part of this project.

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Sounds like an excellent decision to me. I wouldn't touch that project with a stick. I've never had the desire to do something "just because." And sticking a cartridge in an M1 carbine receiver with almost twice the case capacity "just because" seems a poor challenge to take up.

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Originally Posted by eb in oregon

Sounds like an excellent decision to me. I wouldn't touch that project with a stick. I've never had the desire to do something "just because." And sticking a cartridge in an M1 carbine receiver with almost twice the case capacity "just because" seems a poor challenge to take up.

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If one has some old parts lying around, a “just because” fun conversion is 7.62 x 25. You won’t gain any performance or accuracy from it, but you can form your own brass easily enough and shoot Spitzer profile projectiles, or standard .308 carbine projectiles.

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Originally Posted by flydthecat

If one has some old parts lying around, a “just because” fun conversion is 7.62 x 25. You won’t gain any performance or accuracy from it, but you can form your own brass easily enough and shoot Spitzer profile projectiles, or standard .308 carbine projectiles.

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If I can't have a PPSh 41 I see no need to make a carbine in 7.62x25 as .30 carbine is superior in all loadings and I don't like tweaking magazines or feed ramps. I was fortunate once to have an article published in Handloader magazine (issue 201 Oct 1999) so I'm very familiar with the cartridge. And even though I've still got bunches of it, with a few hundred formed from 5.56 (when I first started working with the cartridge there was no boxer primed brass available and though I've done it I avoid berdan primed). Like I mentioned, "just because" doesn't float my boat much. I've enough to keep me occupied already.

However if a guy want's to do such a project that's all well and good. But the 7.62x33 mm Kurz in a M1 carbine doesn't sit well with me. I've seen rifles chambered in cartridges the receiver wasn't designed to hold. It may work for a while, but eventually it will blow up. I've seen it and applied first aid.

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Originally Posted by eb in oregon

a few hundred formed from 5.56

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That's an interesting side note. I never thought about making 7.62x25 from 5.56 brass... We still have far more steel around although most ammo is harder to find now.

That caliber has a reputation of being a killer but if you read Korean war books like "Break Out" or SLAM's "River and the Gauntlet" there were a lot of Marines getting shot with a PPSH 41 and keep right on fighting for hours and days.
The bullet is really light if I'm not mistaken. The commies used their 7.62XX25 to give people "9mm headaches". If I had a choice between a MP38/40 or a PPSH, it would be a hard choice. I'd probably go for 71 rounds instead of 30/40.

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

That caliber has a reputation of being a killer but if you read Korean war books like "Break Out" or SLAM's "River and the Gauntlet" there were a lot of Marines getting shot with a PPSH 41 and keep right on fighting for hours and days.
The bullet is really light if I'm not mistaken. The commies used their 7.62XX25 to give people "9mm headaches". If I had a choice between a MP38/40 or a PPSH, it would be a hard choice. I'd probably go for 71 rounds instead of 30/40.

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There is a difference between one hole or five or more. The PPSh 41 is a remarkably easy gun to hold down for accurate fire on automatic fire. And with a fire rate of more than double the MP 38/40 (about 1250 or so vs 500) with less recoil it's not something to dismiss because the loading was only a 85 grain projectile at about 1600 fps.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

That's an interesting side note. I never thought about making 7.62x25 from 5.56 brass... We still have far more steel around although most ammo is harder to find now.

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Nothing to it. The TOK sizing die easily creates the shoulder. I use .223, 5.56 and 300AAC brass.

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Originally Posted by flydthecat

I use .223, 5.56 and 300AAC brass.

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With some inside case neck reaming I would suspect? I made about 600 rds of 7.92 Kurz decades ago for a man with an MP44 and used Federal once fired .308. Had all the toys to work with including the inside case neck ream...

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Originally Posted by flydthecat

Nothing to it. The TOK sizing die easily creates the shoulder. I use .223, 5.56 and 300AAC brass.

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As mentioned when I first started working with 7.62x25 there was no new commercial boxer primed brass available that didn't include buying really expensive commercial ammunition so I formed two hundred from 5.56 brass. First shortened, then formed, inside neck reamed, resized again, then trimmed to length. A lot of work. Then about eight months later Starline started making brass and I bought a few hundred more. Much easier. While there is "nothing to it" it is labor intensive and I see no reason to make something I can buy readily. I only make stuff I can't find anywhere else (such as 5.7MMJ) as then you can spend more time shooting it than making it. I try to save the "making" part for absolute need.

Edit: It's labor intensive enough that I'd put up a large tarp to catch the brass as a CZ 52 launches cases like an Olympic javelin thrower. Losing a few cases was almost physically painful after all that work.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

With some inside case neck reaming I would suspect? I made about 600 rds of 7.92 Kurz decades ago for a man with an MP44 and used Federal once fired .308. Had all the toys to work with including the inside case neck ream...

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After I size, I hit the mouth with a 19/64 drill bit, but anything close to .300 works. It has to be cleaned up a tad before it can be flared or the flaring die might hang-up on the mouth edge. I don’t flare much at all, just enough to start the bullet.

Years ago I found and bought 100 rds of yellow box Remington 30 Mauser pistol ammo, later Midway offered 7,62 or 7,63 empty brass too (along with 8mm Nambu). I found the 30 Mauser (7,62x25) in an old sporting goods store. Used 93gr lead bullets, 85 gr jackets and 100 gr half jackets in my Mauser 96 with light loads of Unique.

There was a popular wildcat 22/7,63x25 cartridge with barrels made for the Czech Model 52 pistol some twenty years ago

Mauser pistol target at 25 meters, should have used the stockAttachment 127465

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Originally Posted by RCS

Years ago I found and bought 100 rds of yellow box Remington 30 Mauser pistol ammo, later Midway offered 7,62 or 7,63 empty brass too (along with 8mm Nambu). I found the 30 Mauser (7,62x25) in an old sporting goods store. Used 93gr lead bullets, 85 gr jackets and 100 gr half jackets in my Mauser 96 with light loads of Unique.

There was a popular wildcat 22/7,63x25 cartridge with barrels made for the Czech Model 52 pistol some twenty years ago

Mauser pistol target at 25 meters, should have used the stockAttachment 127465

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When I started working with the 7.62x25 I ran the lighter loads through a C96 Mauser. Actually I had two at the time. The lighter loads worked swell, but once I started reaching the higher limits of the Mauser cartridge I used the CZ 52 expressly. I some times think I should of kept those two C96 pistols, but there is only enough room and so much money.

I realize this is an ancient thread, but things have been slow over here for a while. Since Tokarev has been brought up, I will mention that I have converted a carbine to 7.62x25. Not much to it and everything is carbine spec. I shoot about any .308 bullet profile I want as long as I don’t exceed 30-carbine OAL. It feeds, chambers and ejects flawlessly and can be hand loaded to 30-carbine performance.