What type of No 4 sniper do I have?

[gdk771]

Hello,

I found this rifle in the back of my closet. It has been there since the early 90's when I bought it at an estate sale for $325. I thought that was pricey at the time (you could get a standard No 4 for $79 back then) but I really liked it. It says on the receiver MA 47 and under that 1944 and underneath that B3268x and finally TR 43 (see picture) It unfortunately is missing the scope. Does anyone know if the Gun Parts Co. reproduction scope and mount is any good? I would love to find an original scope and mount for it but am realistic that probably won't happen.
I really don't know much about it. Can the experts here tell me exactly what I have? I am enclosing pictures of the rifle and case. I have been told by some other helpful collectors it is a BSA model and has the correct zinc but plate. I also know that it was imported by Interarmco in Alexandria Virginia by rail in Dec 1959 (see pictures of freight tags).

I have also been told that the buttstock may have been replaced in the past. If this is the case it was back in 1959 or earlier is my guess as it matches the overall wear on the rifle. I hope to get this old girl up and shooting again for the first time in almost 65 years. I rarely post here but I have been a member of the forum since the mid 2000's.

Thanks for any comments or suggestions.

[Salt Flat]

Not too many people here like the quality of the repro scopes. Really interesting though, that you have the original shipping box and provenance. The No4 Mk1 (T) folks here will be on this by morning, What a find!
Here's a link to a similar BSA No4 (T) discussed on this forum: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=48931
Salt Flat

[GeeRam]

The interesting thing is the early 1944 production block, on a B prefix, so a long way into Mk.2 scope use, and yet the butt appears to have a very earlier Mk.1 scope number...

[Surpmil]

The interesting thing is the early 1944 production block, on a B prefix, so a long way into Mk.2 scope use, and yet the butt appears to have a very earlier Mk.1 scope number...

There's a good reason for that: they weren't producing a stream of No.4(T)s at H&H, they were producing a trickle.

So while flapping their wings about REL and Long Branch and their No32 scope production, "send a man over to help" etc. etc., there were thousands of Mk.I and Mk.II scopes sitting in store somewhere in the UK waiting to be fitted to rifles. I deduced that from records originally found by Clive Law, but here's some more proof: a W. Watson scope No. 1321, produced in 1941, getting fitted to a rifle made in 1944!

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....l=1#post362178

And as we can all see, that rifle hasn't been so much as shot since it left the custody of the MoD, in fact the condition of the wood and metal suggests it was never issued at all after conversion.

[Alan de Enfield]

What type of No 4 sniper do I have?

You have had 17 very good, detailed, replies to your question on another forum - I doubt you will get anything extra here, but, you never know.

[Roger Payne]

Well, at the risk of repeating what you've already heard: it's a rather nice looking early 1944 production & definitely genuine BSA Shirley No4 T. I cannot see anything otherwise remarkable about it, save for, as you've said, a rather low scope serial number stamped into the butt for a 1944 rifle. William Watson produced Mk1 scopes into 1944 (I have one as a restoration project at present), but they are dated '44 & obviously have a much higher serial number. You mentioned that you suspect the butt may have been swapped at some point? That could explain it if the butt off an earlier rifle got fitted as a replacement. If you remove the butt, & it is indeed a genuine wartime original 4T butt, you should see the original rifle serial number (less letter prefix) stamped into it where it fits into the butt socket. That might solve the mystery!

[gdk771]

I will try to take the buttstock off and see if I can see a serial number underneath it.

So what type of scope would be correct for it? An early one to go with the buttstock or a later one for the receiver? I guess it does not really matter as it will always be mismatched either way.

Does anyone here know much about the history of Interarmco? I would love to know how many of these came into the USA by them. I am guessing they came in by ship and were shipped by rail from the tags on it. I can't make out the source on them unfortunately, only the destination.

[gdk771]

I was not aware they were owned by Interarmco (also known as interarms) Guess you could buy all you wanted of these for $79 in 1968. I was around back then but wearing diapers and had no money

[Alan de Enfield]

So what type of scope would be correct for it? An early one to go with the buttstock or a later one for the receiver? I guess it does not really matter as it will always be mismatched either way.

Up until the mid 1920s the 'barrel' WAS the firearm, everything else was numbered to the barrel.
From the mid '20s the body (action / receiver) became the firearm and everything was numbered to the body.

For a WW2 No4T the body is the master component and that determines what period components should be used - that would only change if it was FTR'd or upgraded at a later date.


Instructions to Armourers Up to the mid 1920s :

Numbering Parts

31) Each rifle and carbine must invariably be used with its own breech bolt, otherwise the lugs will not bear evenly and the rifle or carbine will fire to the left or right.
As it is essential to good shooting each short rifle must always be used with the forend and nose-cap which were assembled to it when its sighting was adjusted before issue.

32) When fitting spare bodies, bolts or sight leaves (and in the case of short rifles spare forends and nose-caps also) to arms, the components mentioned will be marked with the barrel number, and when fitting a spare body and barrel, or a barrel the whole of the components before mentioned will be renumbered with the new barrel number.


Instruction to Armourers Post mid 1920s

Numbering Parts

17. Each rifle must invariably be used with the breech bolt bearing the rifle number, otherwise the lugs may not bear evenly, and the rifle may fire to the right or left; the distance from the bolt to the end of the chamber may also be affected. When, owing to loss or damage, it becomes necessary to fit another bolt to a rifle, the rifle should be fired for accuracy on the range. The fore-end and nose-cap are also fitted and numbered to the rifle. Accuracy tests must always be carried out when either or both of these components are exchanged.

18. When spare bolts, sight leaves, fore-ends and nose-caps are fitted to rifles, they will be marked with the body number. When fitting a spare barrel with body, the whole of the components before mentioned will be re-marked with the new body number.

[Roger Payne]

To answer your question about the scope - accepting it is a 1944 rifle, then pretty much any mark. The scope number on the butt relates to a 1941 production Mk1 scope by William Watson. If the butt turns out to be original to the rifle then that's your answer (though that would be rather unusual).
However, if it is not the original butt, then we return to what is appropriate for a 1944 4T. The Mk2 scope was introduced in April 1943, & the Mk3 in October 1944, so both Mk2's & 3's would be acceptable, as would the hybrid Mk2/1. But as I mentioned above, Watson continued producing Mk1 scopes into 1944 (they tend to turn up with serial numbers in the 14,000+ range), so a late Watson Mk1 would also be acceptable. If you intend to shoot it at all regularly I'd try & find a 2/1 or a 3, simply because they're less fiddly to adjust.