Photograph of rare Canadian Telescopic Rifles from WWII (Expert opinions wanted)

[breakeyp]

No idea here but we have one of the butts. It would be an absolute doddle to reproduce one on a copy lathe connected to a shadowgraph. Simplified I know, but the engineers will see what I'm getting at

Peter it is odd that you mention the pistol grip/sporting butt stock as I have the Long Branch steel master for the profile lathe that made buttstocks. It is carved out of a steel blank and weights about thirty pounds. It came from the big Long Branch auction/closeout.

[paulseamus]

Breakeyp

Would be very interested to see a few photographs of your butt stock steel master.

I find the pre-cnc technology fascinating.

Hopefully you are able to post some pictures.

Cheers

Paul

[Peter Laidler]

I haven't seen the steel 'master' of course but that's what you'd need for a large run. But due to the slight overhang of the cheek rest part, it'd have to be done in two stages - plus the internals of course.

To do a few butts you'd just use a perfect original as the master and 'wrap' it to preserve............... anyway it ain't my concern as they say!

[RJW NZ]

Awesome picture, some history right there, thank you for posting.

I can't help wondering how the gent with the coke bottle glasses, they're almost literally so, could be in a course like this, wouldn't eyesight issues like this be too much conflict with the needs of a sniper, and wouldn't those lenses be a fogging up risk up or ? Sorry if its not PC to ask, I just mean them as the practical questions. He must have got a lot of ribbing too, they look ... well... terrific. And,, the gent with the cut back rifle? Terrific unibrow, looks so intense he can probably do 1 moa at 1,000 yards before he concentrates.
Interesting crowd.

[Brian Dick]

I had the same observation RJW. Guys with glasses aren't sniper candidates. I'd guess he's an Armourer!

[Surpmil]

The two scopes on the right appear to be early 3.5x variants, due to the sheen on the ocular bells and the distinct 'sharp' corner where they transition to the parallel sides of the bell. The C67s of course had the non-reflective textured paint finish and a less 'sharp' transition.

The offset sights on the "sporter" rifle were due to a little game being played by the WD/Min. of Supply with the specifications of sniper rifles for British use, that laid down that iron sights of such rifles had to be usable with scope fitted! The next little dodge was saying that the scope had to be offset to the left! The specifications kept changing until the Canadians gave up, and REL was quickly and conveniently disposed of. This is taken from "Without Warning" by Clive Law who of course dug all that out of the records. Reminiscent of BSA and others diligent efforts to get the Ross Rifle Co. shut down during and after the previous war.

Business is business they say.

[Peter Laidler]

It's the Ordnance Board who lay down the specification after issuing a GS requirement after listening to the UOR's Surpmil and not the MoD, WD or MoS. So I'm a bit perplexed as to whether someone has misread the spec - whoever's spec it was - regarding the iron sight being useable while the tele sight was fitted. Or if there was such an absurd requirement! After all, if it applied to that requirement, then I'm at a loss as to why it didn't apply to the No4T - and the later L42 and the later L96 and the later...........

We ALWAYS insist on a back-up sight. Apologies for being contrary but I would suspect that (and I haven't seen anything to the contrary.....) that the fore-endless rifle shot as badly as any other fore-endless No4 and regardless of the telescope fitted, barrel harmonics decrees that it's not how the part of the barrel the bullet has passed through is acting BUT how the part of the barrel that it has yet to pass through is acting

[Lee Enfield]

snip...
that the fore-endless rifle shot as badly as any other fore-endless No4 and regardless of the telescope fitted, barrel harmonics decrees that it's not how the part of the barrel the bullet has passed through is acting BUT how the part of the barrel that it has yet to pass through is acting

Convenient then that the barrel is supposed to be heavier on the "sporter forend" models isn't it?

[Peter Laidler]

Of course it is, but we're talking about the vibrating characteristics of a No4 barrel

[Surpmil]

It's the Ordnance Board who lay down the specification after issuing a GS requirement after listening to the UOR's Surpmil and not the MoD, WD or MoS. So I'm a bit perplexed as to whether someone has misread the spec - whoever's spec it was - regarding the iron sight being useable while the tele sight was fitted. Or if there was such an absurd requirement! After all, if it applied to that requirement, then I'm at a loss as to why it didn't apply to the No4T - and the later L42 and the later L96 and the later...........

We ALWAYS insist on a back-up sight. Apologies for being contrary but I would suspect that (and I haven't seen anything to the contrary.....) that the fore-endless rifle shot as badly as any other fore-endless No4 and regardless of the telescope fitted, barrel harmonics decrees that it's not how the part of the barrel the bullet has passed through is acting BUT how the part of the barrel that it has yet to pass through is acting

Peter, I don't know anything more than I read in "Without Warning". He references the documents there. Yes, the irony of requiring that the iron sights be usable with the scope fitted when they weren't on the No4(T) was striking, but of course it went from the silly to the ridiculous when in March 1945 they specified an offset scope next! You can see why Clive says our chaps were "furious". They knew it was just a game. The offer of a contract to REL for 6000 No32s (presumably Mk3s to replace the MkI and MkII scopes then in service) instead was apparently also intended to dissuade them from further technical straying from mother's apron strings!

Same with the REL T.O.S.: no need to consider that for UK service as "in future snipers are only going to have binoculars".

It's alright to copy Czech machine guns, but we can't be shown up by mere colonials! I know some people are going to say this is so much whinging, but that's the historical record and it's quite instructive. Take or leave it folks.