M1 Carbine in an intermediate caliber

[floydthecat]

I wish the Johnson would have caught-on. I think many of us would be shooting it today. I also think that even if a steady supply of ammo were available right now that many of us would be shooting it.

[eb in oregon]

I wish the Johnson would have caught-on. I think many of us would be shooting it today. I also think that even if a steady supply of ammo were available right now that many of us would be shooting it.

If there were a quality manufacturer making the rifle/cartridge combination today I'm sure you are correct. IAI and Iver Johnson tried but their quality was spotty at best and neither tried using the feed ramp profile developed by Melvin Johnson for the "Spitfire" carbine. There was also an issue of barrel twist, not correct for 40 grain bullets. Johnson's feed ramp profile worked not only for the 5.7 but also standard .30 carbine. A standard .30 carbine ramp will usually feed RN bullets for the 5.7, but not any type of pointed bullet. However the biggest reason it didn't catch on was that no major ammunition manufacturer would commit to making the 5.7MMJ. There were only a few smaller ammunition manufacturers (3-D for one) that made small runs of ammunition. So when the 5.7MMJ was being made by Johnson Arms ammunition was basically custom made. Johnson Arms built about 200 carbines and altered for customers around 50. I don't know how many IAI or Iver Johnson made, but those weren't enough either. With the same issues, ammunition was not readily available. So, essentially a great idea ignored by the "bean counters."

[DaveHH]

At the time, 30 carbine ammunition, fresh quality military ammunition was about a dime a shot. No ammunition maker could compete against that. The new Winchester .22 Magnum was just coming out and it was perfect for that slot. I remember buying a new Mossberg .22 Mag with scope was $37. Tack driver out past 100 yards. I don't recall what 22 mag ammo cost but it was probably somewhere around $2.50 a box of 50.

[eb in oregon]

10 cents a shot is swell for plinking ammunition, but I know of nowhere where .30 Carbine FMJ is legal to hunt anything. So a person has to pay more for soft nosed ammunition anyway and the cost would be comparable for 5.7MMJ. And realistically 5.7MMJ is far superior to .22 Magnum which has similar ballistics to 5.7x28. However you are correct that there is a cost difference in the .22 magnums favor.

[floydthecat]

Food for thought using what you got. You can push a 85-grain .308 Mauser projectile to 2500fps delivering muzzle energy of 1200 foot-pounds. Hodgdon publishes the load data. Neither the 5.7 or 22 magnum approaches this performance.

[eb in oregon]

Food for thought using what you got. You can push a 85-grain .308 Mauser projectile to 2500fps delivering muzzle energy of 1200 foot-pounds. Hodgdon publishes the load data. Neither the 5.7 or 22 magnum approaches this performance.

Say, you think over twice the bullet weight and almost the same velocity has something to do with that? I've always thought bullet weight and velocity had everything to do with muzzle energy. Then too you might consider that pistols are generally worthless out past 100 yards simply because of the platform and barrel length. And too if a heavy bullet weight is important one might as stay with the original .30 Carbine as it works well enough out to 200 yards.

https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/lodge...gy-calculator/

[floydthecat]

Just to be sure....I did not mean the Mauser "round", I was referring to the 85-grain .308 Mauser "projectile" loaded in a carbine case. The opportunity is there to alter the performance of the 7.62 x 33 thru hand loading. It will never compete with a 22-caliber Spitzer bullet at range, but it can be fun to work with.

As an aside, one can expect a 15 to 20% improvement in muzzle velocity in pistol calibers fired from an 18-inch barrel. Certainly nothing close to a good center-fire rifle load, but better.

[DaveHH]

Regarding the 5.7 carbine: We can talk about how it is better or not, the answer speaks for itself, there are almost no Spitfire Johnsons and ammunition is extremely rare. It was a good answer to a non-existent problem. Johnson was a huge self promoter who used his Marine Corps connection to raise hell with the US ordnance Dept. Almost killing the best combat rifle in the world at the time. I've shot the Johnson automatic quite a bit, my close friend had one ($65) when we were teenagers. It is a very good rifle and it was effective and liked by the Marines who used it. The salient point was that as soon as the Marine Corps was exposed to the M1, they liked it better and the riflemen wanted it even if Marine Corps Brass resisted it. My list of good qualities in a combat rifle includes the ability to beat someone to death with it if it comes up empty. The Garand and M14 passes this test with flying colors. The barrel would look like a pretzel if you tried that with the Johnson.

In my opinion, the critics say that the 8 round enbloc was the Achilles heel of the Garand. I think that it was one of the best features of the rifle. To be able to go into a battle with a belt and several bandoleers of enblocs was a big plus. Additionally, in a break in the action empty clips could be reloaded with machine gun ammunition and redistributed to the troops. This happened several times at the Chosin Reservoir and it saved a lot of lives. The Johnson automatic would need 5 round clips or loose rounds to replenish and the reload was a slow tedious arrangement just for 2 additional rounds.

[eb in oregon]

Most of that has nothing to with the subject at hand, which is the M1 Carbine and what it can be chambered for. And just asking, but if .22 caliber hi-velocity cartridges are so bad why has virtually all the major military's of the entire world gone to .22 caliber battle rifles at present?

And try beating someone to death with an M4 Carbine or most modern battle rifles and see what you end up with. Trench warfare is long past, as is human wave assaults. We all know about opinions, everybody has at least one.

[jimb16]

I have several opinions, depending on which of my personalities you are speaking with! *LOL*