Mystery of the Missing Wartime Long Branch Snipers

[Peter Laidler]

When you say '....without scopes' (thread 70, last line) do you mean literally 'without scopes' or 'without scopes and brackets' If you mean without scopes and brackets then I'd say categorically NONE for technical reasons that I won't go into again. But in short, a No4T without a telescope and bracket is just a No4 rifle. Like a taxi without a TAXI sign is just another car

[Seaspriter]

do you mean literally 'without scopes' or 'without scopes and brackets'

I'm putting myself into the role and mindset of the Production Manager in Long Branch in 1944. Here's what I'd guess he is thinking at this point:

"Damnation! Why did we ever take on this awful Sniper Contract!! I've got Sniper rifles that have been fitted with front and rear pads, the brackets are here in inventory; I've even got transit cases and No.15 chests, BUT NO G**D***** Scopes! We've jury-rigged the Lyman Alaskan scopes to fit, but REL still can't produce enough scopes -- despite my daily phone calls cajoling and screaming at them. And the Brits have enough scopes to get this monkey off my back. Will the Brits take Snipers, complete except for the missing scopes, then install their scopes after arrival in the UK?"

Production Manager Marshall must have had this thought in his mind. Did LB Snipers actually go to the UK without scopes? This is plausible, but mere speculation without proof/evidence.

Any thoughts?

[Peter Laidler]

Speculation again but after the H&H overseer got to the sniper rifle fitting out bay - or whatever it was - there wouldn't have been such a thing as 'brackets in stock' or 'bracket-less rifles' because that was a fundamental part of the H&H method of speeding up production. It was the BRACKET that was mechanically matched and collimated to the mechanical bore/axis of the rifle. Not the telescope. We still don't know the answer though. Telescopes were fitted at H&H after the fitting up and boresighted in 'the long room'.

Maybe that's part of the reason he went to LB in the first place.

[Bruce_in_Oz]

1. How many were "de-snipered" in later life?

2. How many were never fitted with "approved" optics and were thus just another "funny"?

3. How many complete (or otherwise) units were "diverted" to Davey Jones Locker in transit, courtesy of the Reichsmarine?

[Seaspriter]

How many were "de-snipered" in later life?

2. How many were never fitted with "approved" optics and were thus just another "funny"?

3. How many complete (or otherwise) units were "diverted" to Davey Jones Locker in transit, courtesy of the Reichsmarine?

These are excellent questions Bruce.
1. Apparently quite a few Snipers (of all types were sold or scrapped minus their scopes. How many is still being debated.
2. It is plausible, but not yet proven, that some (maybe quite a few) may have been shipped in chests to the UK with brackets without scopes (is there any data on this?)
3. From what I understand (someone please confirm) that rather than be freightered in a convoy at sea like regular rifles, the snipers went as "precious" air cargo. Remember, at this time the US is sending a squadron of planes a day (B-17s -- over 12,000 and B-24 Liberator Bombers -- Ford produced 1,894) to the UK -- these would never have gone empty, but carried precious cargo, impervious to U-boat attack. The Woman's Air Service Pilot (WASP) corps of 1,074 female pilots augmented the male pilots flying over 60 million miles ferrying aircraft to airfields, many in the UK. Between September 1942 and December 1944, the WASP delivered 12,650 aircraft of 78 different types.

[Peter Laidler]

I can't really believe in my heart that crated sniper rifles were a precious air cargo. The more weight you put into the aircraft, the more fuel you use. Small Arms losses at sea was put at 5.5% or something very close to that from memory. So what's 5% of the total LB sniper output?

[Lee Enfield]

I can't really believe in my heart that crated sniper rifles were a precious air cargo. The more weight you put into the aircraft, the more fuel you use. Small Arms losses at sea was put at 5.5% or something very close to that from memory. So what's 5% of the total LB sniper output?

79.4 rifles = 5% of total production including 1946

57.05 = 5% of 1944 & 1945 production

[Seaspriter]

Small Arms losses at sea was put at 5.5% or something very close to that from memory

The available information from Savage/Stevens production came from a hand written note in the archives:
A hand-written document in the file drawn up in 1946 on receipts of smallarms from the USA notes the total of No.4's shipped: 1,193,136,
of which 46,678 were lost in transit. (probably sunk by u-Boats)

[Lee Enfield]

From the 1953 dated Canadian EMER here is a photo of 71L0693

Attachment 70991

[Surpmil]

I can't really believe in my heart that crated sniper rifles were a precious air cargo. The more weight you put into the aircraft, the more fuel you use. Small Arms losses at sea was put at 5.5% or something very close to that from memory. So what's 5% of the total LB sniper output?

Yes, considering how they put millions of pounds worth of silver (SS Gairsoppa), or the defence plans for Malaya (SS Automedon), on board lumbering old steamers and sent them off across the oceans to try their luck, I can't see even our beloved No4(T)s getting aircraft space. Mr. C. himself rode in a bomb bay once or twice during the war IIRC.