That "funny" 1M rifle on GunBroker Part II

[AKA Hugh Uno]

ONLY after someone filed a potential fraud complaint to Gunbroker did this person add the following story... I mean "information" about the 1Million M1 rifle with the bogus SN's and fake manufacturers markings to boot.

PART ONE:
[Information added 05/31/2009 10:09:27 PM]
This receiver was imported by Federal Ordnance from the Philippines in the early 1990's. You can look on the front leg of the receiver and see the receiver code indicating it was made at the U.S. Armory in Springfield. The numbers are indeed a different font then traditionally found. The receiver may have been restamped by Federal Ordinance. Rest assured is a U.S. Military forged receiver,not a cast receiver.

PART TWO:

[Information added 06/03/2009 3:33:16 PM]
This is a further clarification to the questions raised by one inquirer regarding a M-1 Garand listed by knuck 39 on Gunbroker. The question arose due to the appearance of the logo and serial number on the heel of the receiver. I will attempt to give the details and explanation of why they are different than your typical US GI Springfield Armory heel logo. In the early 1990's a large gun dealer/importer called Federal Ordnance of South El Monte, CA ( called Fed Ord for short, Fed Ord is no longer in business) imported several containers of M-1's and M-1 parts from the Philippines. (This was a virtual treasure trove of early parts as well as standard run of the mill parts. 4 digit receivers, 1940 dated barrels, uncut -1, -0 op-rods, M-1 C receivers with brackets were just some examples. I spent several afternoons combing through parts and receivers looking for gold.) In order to comply with the requirements of GCA 1968 all re-imported military arms had to be marked by the importer. We all have seen the Blue Sky Arlington VA and the Century Arms St.Albans Vt import marks. Fed Ord marked their barreled receivers on the barrel between the gas cylinder rings. When it came to loose receivers Fed Ord market the receivers on the right receiver legs. They used two different types of markings, one in block type letters perpendicular to the bore axis and another mark smaller parallel to the bore axis. In both cases the often seen radius machining marks on the receiver legs were ground smooth to create a flat surface to apply the import mark. Often these receivers were pitted. Some below the stock line and some above. Not wanting to throw away a perfectly serviceable although crappy appearing receiver what do you do? Or better asked what did Fed Ord do? Get out the belt sander and make the surface pits go away. Well sometimes the end result was a receiver with no more pits but in the process the heel logo as well as the serial number have been removed. Fed Ord simply re-engraved the logo and reapplied a serial number. The reason the serial number on the receiver in question looks different is this, when the receiver was originally marked at Springfield it had not yet been hardened. At Springfield they used a roll stamp to number the receiver. When it left Springfield I think the hardness of the receiver was up around 60-62 hardness on the Rockwell scale. There is no way that Fed Ord could have used a roll stamp with the receiver at that level of hardness, they would have either cracked the receiver or crushed the stamps. Because of this they most likely used an engraver type device with a scalable pantograph. That is why the number look different than what we are used to seeing. I observed dozens of M-1's on the racks at Fed Ord with identical heel markings to the receiver in question in the early 1990's. This receiver also has the D-28291-35 marking as well as the A 21 heat lot marking which are only seen on US GI M-1 receivers. The D-28291 is the SA part number/drawing number for the M-1 receiver and the -35 indicates the 35 revision of the receiver. The A-21 is the heat lot of the steel used to make the receiver. If the receiver in question were indeed a commercially manufactured cast receiver it would not have these Springfield Armory marks that are roll stamped in to the receiver. No commercial manufacturer would incur the extra cost to mark a receiver any more than necessary. Due to the large number of M-1 receivers available there have not been as many manufacturers making M-1 receivers as there have been manufacturing M-1A receivers. The newly manufactured cast receivers have been made by Springfield Inc of Geneseo Ill. In order to avoid confusion with serial number range of the existing M-1s Springfield Inc began their serial numbers at close to 7,000,000. The receiver in question is in the 1.1 million range so it is not a cast receiver made by Springfield Inc. During the 1960's there were a few companies that would buy de-milled M-1 receiver halves put them in a jig and weld them together. By comparing the heel logo with the receiver drawing number you could sometimes find a Winchester rear and a Springfield front or a Winfield M-1. The receiver in question is not one of those as it is import marked. The receiver halves were sold as scrap domestically and would as such not have a import mark present. This is not a welded receiver. The barrel on this rifle is a Fed Ord commercial barrel, not a military barrel stamped Fed Ord between the gas cylinder rings but a barrel marked Fed Ord where the drawing number and dates appear on the military barrels. The stock on the receiver has been sanded as well as having an epoxy repair made to the stock so the trigger group would fit well and not be sloppy. This type of repair was also typical of some Fed -Ord M-1s of that period. If we examine the rifle in its entirety we have an import stamped receiver with a US Springfield Armory drawing number, a Fed Ord commercial barrel, the same barrel manufacturer as the importer, a sanded stock and a mix of other manufacturers that make up the balance of the rifle's parts. That is what you would expect of an importer to do if the were taking receivers and making up complete rifles from a batch of parts they had imported. If this were indeed a bogus, cast receiver then one would have to assume that the manufacturer, whoever that may be, decided to incur the manufacturing cost to begin casting receivers, not put their own name on them but put the US Armory at Springfield's name on them, begin to number the receivers in the serial number range of existing serial numbers. Then put an unnecessary import mark on the receiver, buy or manufacturer a barrel, not put your own name on it but the same name as the import mark you have selected. Select a used stock sand it repair it an put it on the said rifle. Again keep in mind it is likely a crime to put another manufacturer's name on products you manufacture. All this would have to be done under the ever watchful eye of the ATF. I think the likelihood of this happening is very remote. A much more likely explanation is that this was a pitted receiver imported by Fed Ord in the early 90's. It was a loose receiver so too keep it legal it was import marked by Fed Ord. They could make more money selling complete guns so they desired to assemble it into a rifle. In order to maximize the return they decided to remove the surface pits on the receiver by using a belt sander. This necessitated the remarking of the receiver logo and for the reasons stated above a different number font was used to mark the receiver. They used one of their barrels marked as such and screwed it into the receiver grabbed the necessary parts from their inventory, not paying attention to manufacturer, and then sold the rifle. Fed Ord was a business seeking to make money, they could care less about we collectors. I do not claim to have exhaustive knowledge or infallibility about M-1s but as it applies to Fed Ord, I know of what I speak. I spent many hours there and personally saw and inspected several hundred rifles and parts while I was there. The rifle in question with its odd looking heel logo is exactly the same as may other I inspected at that time. I have been an M-1 collector since 1975 having owned several snipers as well as gas traps. I am not into this as much as I used to be as I now prefer Pre-64 model 70's as I need a scoped rifle because of presbyopia. If you refer to Scott Duff's Red Book you will see my name acknowledged in the front of the book. Scott and I are friends. I want to close by saying I think all collectors need to be on guard for fakes and fraud and like all collectors I hate it too. As one of my friends has said, If man made it once man can make it again. In this arena knowledge is powder. If anyone is serious about M-1 Garand collecting I strongly urge you to join the Garand Collector's Association. It is a very professional organization with a enforced code of ethics among collectors. Sincerely, Kevin P. Donohue


I guess the seller's "ethics" didn't require him to mention this information when he first listed the item and then only add this update two days before auction closes. Maybe he didn't notice, but since he apparently is an advanced collector himself, that doesn;t make a lot of sense either. Heck, it's amazing that he STILL has bidders! Nothing like a clean rifle and a BS story to keep the suckers bidding.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Ramboueille]

The seller states:

"This receiver also has the D-28291-35 marking as well as the A 21 heat lot marking which are only seen on US GI M-1 receivers. The D-28291 is the SA part number/drawing number for the M-1 receiver and the -35 indicates the 35 revision of the receiver. The A-21 is the heat lot of the steel used to make the receiver."

To complicate it more, if his statement is accurate, it's also a welded receiver or they completely redid the serial number.

[AKA Hugh Uno]

the obvious question to ask is if this bird is so sure it's USGI because it has heat lot numbers, if someone has faked both the SN and the Manufacturer's Markings, how hard is it to engrave "A-21" too??

The whole thing is 10 pounds of poo in a 5 pound bag.

[High Plaines Doug r]

To quote from the text:

"Knowledge is powder"

[Rick B]

I mailed him about the drawing number and how any amount of bull was not going to make the rifle better. He told me "Your ignorence isn't worth responding to".. Shame. Rick B

[Texasflyboy]

The question arose due to the appearance of the logo and serial number on the heel of the receiver.

Advice you can use for the rest of your gun buying life:

"Buy the gun, not the story."


Guns sell themselves, if they can't, that's when the "story" is conceived.

[JimL]

The stated drawing number and heat lot number coincide with a 3.3 million SA range (USGI) serial number.

I know nothing about Fed Ordnance garands. Has anyone here seen a Fed Ord garand? Were they built on GI receivers?

The legality of stamping a rifle with a serial number that might duplicate a legit rifle is curious.

This is a strange piece indeed.
JimL

[Snafu]

I ordered parts kits less reciever from them around that time from them
It was a Shotgun News add
Two Garand and two carbines
I was ripped off and got nothing

[1-12 INF (M)]

Another one has appeared, I think. (go to picture 27).

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=136896224

I never understood the appeal of the "Tanker" M1. It wasn't such a hot idea in 1944, either.

[Calif-Steve]

Perhaps 1991 (?) Fed Ord imported a pile (60,000) Garands, Carbines and '03's& M1911's) from Manila. They broke almost all of them into parts and sold off the stuff cheap. Most of the stuff was blued by Fed Ord mostly sold on the West Coast. Almost all of the stuff was beat or worse condition. I did not see any collectors guns in the entire lot. I love this story about the is rare Garand. (Do not forget it was broken into parts.)