Andersonville DVD - Anyone seen it?

[John Kepler]

Johnson's Island is 15 miles from where I'm sitting. I place flowers in the cemetary every Memorial Day.

Look, just being in the Army during the conflict was "Hazardous to your Health" even with an infrastructure that was doing it's level best to keep the soldier healthy and fed...when no one particularly gave a Tinker's Dam, such as with POW camps, things could deteriorate rather badly.

Having said that, Andersonville was far worse than it should have been or needed to be...if there's a statue of Heinrich Hartmann Wirz in Andersonville, then it's a monument to incompetence and stupidity.

As for the rest, I'm not going to re-fight the Civil War with you, but neither am I going to agree that the "poor South" was jes sittin' aroun', mindin' it's own bidness....when Lincoln sent in an Army to beat'um up! The South had an agenda that was dark and essentially evil, and ultimately defined the methods by which that agenda was finally "modified" and has done nothing much but b!tch about it ever since! I'm sure that all that "Banger" in the Hood wants is to be "left alone" too!

[SteveC]

Edited-just dropped it all, it was a pointless rant. I'll never forget the bravery of my ancestors, and I'll never forget their sacrifices. I'm sure you northern boys feel the same way.

May the Lord bless them all, and may we never forget why (we individually believe) they fought and died.

[John Kepler]

As am I, Steve, so there really isn't any reason to rant, and I ain't exactly "...one of them Northern boys".

July 1, 1863 was a tough day for our family. On Mom's side, James McCroskey 40th Virginia, Heth's Div., 3rd Corps (A.P. Hill) was shot in the left arm, captured near the Railroad Cut, had his left arm amputated in a Federal hospital, and was paroled at Carlisle, PA in Aug., 1863 (my cousin has the signed parole). Ironically, on Dad's side, Peter S. Kepler 150th PA (The Bucktails), 3rd Div (Doubleday), 1st Corps (Reynolds) was shot in the left leg near McPherson's barn within sight of the Railroad Cut, and had the injured limb amputated...likely in the same Federal hospital as his future great-great brother-in-law! Both survived.

Mom's people were simple farmers near Abingdon,VA....never owned a slave, wouldn't have had one if you gave it to them (documented fact....someone tried in 1854 in an attempt to settle a debt...no sale!), thought slavery was scripturally indefensible (and recorded same in the Family Bible), and in the end, typified the bitter "Rich-man's war, poor-man's fight" aspect of the conflict. Nevertheless, the family sent 3 sons into the Confederate Army, got 2 back, one of them maimed.

[SteveC]

Excellent post and history John!

My people (let me qualify, my father's direct lineage) were poor sharecroppers. My Great great Grandfather took his 4 eldest boys off to serve in August 1861, leaving only my great Grandfather at home with his sisters to help his wife continue farming. He never owned a piece of land, yet he felt it his duty, at 42 years of age, to enlist for the Southern cause of Independence and he so believed in his Cause, that he took those 4 sons off to war with him. They fought together through the duration of the war until most of them were captured at Saylor's Creek, just a few days before Appomattox. One was captured earlier in the war and held at Point Lookout for something over a year. But they all survived and came home to continue farming with one of the boys actually buying a small farm. Not one went to war to preserve slavery, not one ever owned a slave, and not one was willing to die for the institution. You expressed the "poor man's war" facet wonderfully in your post. Too many good men died on both sides, and most if not all would be ashamed of what their country has become...

Lord bless you and yours John!

[JDBoardman]

At this point, as a Southerner and historian, I feel i have to chime in.

1. Slavery was NOT a focus, or major cause of the War until 1863, with the issuance of the Emancipation Proclamation. And if you read that document, you will find that it "liberates" slaves held ONLY "in the States or portions of the States..." at rebellion. Those slaves held in the North (of which there were many) and those held in previously occupied areas were not freed. In fact, the last state to free its slaves was Massachusetts, after passage of the 13th Amendment.

2. If you will read contemporary accounts such as the newspapers and magazines of the time, the initial response in the North was to "...let those troublemakers go...we don't need their kind anyway..." until it became obvious that the majority of the Federal income was derived from tariffs collected in New Orleans, Savannah and Charleston. Further, the merchants and the bankers let the hue and cry to reunite the Union to restore their markets.

3. Many (if not most) of the Union officers expressed extreme displeasure with fighting to end slavery. It was a not uncommon statement thread "if i'da known I was fighting to free the ..." that they would have resigned their commissions, refused to fight, whatever.

Despite the foregoing truths, the War Between the States was (and still is) a national tragedy of the first magnitude. We, as a Nation, lost over 650,000 of our fellow citizens in a war that never needed to be fought. Slavery had become an economically unsustainable institution (a slave sold for over $3000.00 at a time when an acre of land went for $1.25, and few could afford that cost).

I personally feel that the greatest casualty, next to the lives of the soldiers, both North and South, was the belief in the supremacy of the 10th Amendment and the concept of Federalism. The War led to the Strong central government that the founding Fathers feared and which plagues us to this day.

[John Kepler]

Nevertheless, slavery had been shaping the US political landscape like a D-9 Cat since the ratification of a Constitution that didn't ban it out-right. It was the "dirty little secret" no one talked about, and everyone thought about. Why isn't Mexico a state, and for that matter, why did we go to war with Mexico in the first place? Slavery! Why wasn't the Homestead Act passed after the Louisiana Purchase? Slavery! Why wasn't a transcontinental railroad built in the 1850's when it was technically and even more economically viable? Slavery! Why was the Southern Cause doomed from the day of it's inception? Slavery!

It is the pinnacle of revisionist history and/or naivete to talk about the conflict and NOT recognize the issue of slavery at it's core. Without slavery, the war would NEVER have happened!

"If a slave can be made a soldier, then our entire concept of the institution is wrong." A. Stephens

[SteveC]

John, I almost let you have the last word on this (and you may well yet have it) but I just can't ignore your last post. Most Southern soldiers were not slave owners, I believe that has been statistically proven time and time again. When we honor our ancestors, when we speak of "the War", when we consider the sacrifices of our brave Confederate forebears, we do so to honor their service in the field, not to honor the politics of the time nor the evils of either government. I expect you Yanks do the same for your forebears, as well you should.

In short, to heap the institution of slavery on every Confederate soldier that served is the pinnacle of injustice and serves only to drive more wedges between us, modern day North and South. Please pay close attention to the first part of the quote below, it came from, undoubtedly, the most honorable man to serve on either side of the conflict:

"So far from engaging in a war to perpetuate slavery, I am rejoiced that Slavery is abolished. I believe it will be greatly for the interest of the South. So fully am I satisfied of this that I would have cheerfully lost all that I have lost by the war, and have suffered all that I have suffered to have this object attained." Robert E. Lee

And the epitome of why Southern men served:

"With all my devotion to the Union and the feeling of loyalty and duty of an American citizen, I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home. I have therefore resigned my commission in the Army, and save in defense of my native State, with the sincere hope that my poor services may never be needed, I hope I may never be called on to draw my sword..." Robert E. Lee

I have said all I shall say on the subject.

[Ken The Kanuck]

It would appear to me that there are many various types of slavery. When I see the pictures of young children forced into jobs, working 12 hrs. a day 7 days a week because of economic need. This hardly seems any worse than slavery prior to the civil war in the plantations of the South. Yet after the war was ended, this type of slavery continued in the North and around the world. It continues today, those in third world countries producing the cheap goods cannot be considered free.

Somehow I have to think that slavery in the South would of disappeared once the beancounters, started running the cotton companies. I'm not sure that the civil war was needed to end slavery, but it seems like it was a very good peg on which to hang your hat.

KTK

[Timmer]

I find it hard to take sides as an old family photo shows a Confederate Soldier standing on one end of the family photo while a Federal Soldier stands on the other end. I believe the photo was taken in the 1880's. I will know more when I refind it.

[Southron129]

Comparing Fort Pillow with Andersonville is comparing "apples and oranges." An unfortunate aspect of EVERY war is that, in some cases, enemy prisoners of the side that lost the battle have been massacred.

There was also a massacre of prisoners following the Battle of Saltville, Va-but the Confedrate responsible for that massacre, Champ Ferguson was, after the war-tried, found guilty and hung. He deserved his fate and was not the victim of a judicial lynching as was the case with Wirtz.

The actual fact of the matter was that the DEATH RATE of Southern P.O.W's in Northern prison camps was HIGHER than the death rate of Northern prisoners in Southern P.O.W. camps. The North had adequate resources to care for their prisoners adequately; which was not the case in the South.

In 1845/65 Jacksonville, Florida was occupied by Yankee troops. On several occasions Confederate authorities tried to arrange a truce where some of the prisoners at Andersonville could be turned over to federal authoriy-no exchange was to be involved. Yet, even this was refused!

I would also like to point out that in 1863 when Lee's Army of Northern Virginia invaded Pennsylvania during the Gettysburg Campaign; the property of Pennsylvania civilians was respected. When foodstuffs, horses and other items were seized because of military necessity; the owners of thos properties were given vouchers which they could redeem to be paid.

The behavior of the Yankee armies in the South was totally different. Sherman and his men made war on innocent civilians. AFter the fall of Atlanta in 1864, General Sherman ordered the evacuation of the city by civilians. Thus, the aged, infirm and sick were literally kicked out of their homes and sent beyond Confederate lines with winter coming on.Then Sherman burned the city.

Supposedly the war was being fought "to free the slaves," yet in the area of Georgia I live in not only were the foodstuffs stolen to feed Sherman's men and the plantation houses and outbuildings burned-but in many, many cases also the slave cabins on those plantations.

Thus, the most innocent of Southern civilians (slaves) lost their homes but
had to follow Sherman's army in the hope that they could obtain food. As it was many died of exposure and starvation-especially the aged, very young and infirm.

At several river crossings, Sherman's engineers threw up pontoon bridges so the army could cross, but then destroyed the bridges before the blacks following the army could cross. Many, many died of exposure and starvation.

The unpardonable sin that Southerners had committed was simply a desire for "self-determination."

By the way, if you don't believe me-check with General Sherman. He will confim what I have posted and his guilg. His current mailing address is:

General William T. Sherman, (Deceased)
666 Brimstone Lane,
Firey Circle Terrace
HELL