Rhodesian Enfields with cammo

[Thunderbox]

There was a lot of variation in the applied camo pattern, and if some Rhodesian weapons don't seem to have an "overall coverage", it's probably because they were being humped around in the bush & banged against vehicles for years.

Not really, the weapons I remember were as in the photos - usually one, sometimes two, colours painted on to break up the outline of the weapon. Painting all over, as in the two Enfields, tends to negate the camouflage effect.

It would be interesting to see whether any photos of similar Enfields in use in Rhodesia turn up. What is the actual provenance for the rifles?

[bigstick61]

Maybe not everyones cup of tea but came across these imports while sorting out some other stuff.





ATB Kevin

The top one has a Rhodesian paint scheme while the bottom one does not (although the Rhodesian forces did use No. 5s). I'm curious as to whether or not any of these have RA serial numbers stamped or electropenciled on them, as this is often found on weapons that were in Rhodesian service.

As for usage of Lee-Enfields, Intaf forces used them (military units that were part of the Ministry of Internal Affairs), Guard Forces may have used them, the BSAP (British South Africa Police) made some use of them, and they were also used for training purposes (I've actually seen pictures of them being used this way on websites). For a little while after UDI, some may have been used by Territorials or rear-echelon units. As it is, the Rhodesians used quite the variety of weapons.

[bigstick61]

Here's some pictures of the Lee-Enfield in Rhodesian service. The first is of personnel in the British South Africa Police. The second is of Rhodesian soldiers running an assault course during training. The third is of either police or private security in Rhodesia in 1979. The fourth is of Rhodesian soldiers training. The fifth is of some sort of Rhodesian unit being inspected, I am not sure what unit, where, or by whom.

An website about Intaf forces has pics of Lee-Enfields being used by Intaf troops, and I've seen other pictures on the web; in some cases the details are hard to make out. I have one that is pre-UDI but post-adoption of the L1A1 SLR, but it was too big to upload.

[Peter Laidler]

With cammo like that I have to ask the question, but how would you find it if you dropped it?

[Thunderbox]

I've just examined several of these rifles - all No1s. They have been imported into UK from South Africa. All of them bear SA "WR" weapons registry numbers, two have SA service marks, none have RA or other specific Rhodie service indications.

Difficult to deduce any provenance prior to the SA phase of their lives.

Sadly, they are all in scrap condition and heading for the de-act cutter - common fate of much of the SA stuff, where it seems the owners trashed them before handing them in...

[Kev G]

The rifles,pistols,Brens and GPMG's that I have seen and shown pictures of were directly imported into the UK from Zim not SA.
I can't comment on the rifles apart from some bare a British South Africa Police BSAP mark to the top of the reciever.A large proportion of the Brens have been reserial numbered with the RA prefix though others retain their original s/n.
The 'all over' cammo pattern can be seen in the picture montage of Rhodesian weapons I posted earlier.

ATB Kevin

[Amatikulu]

Bigstick61's pictures of Lee Enfields and Fal's prior to 1980 seem to be devoid of cammo paint. Perhaps the cammo painting is time or unit specific?

[John R.]

I left the Rhodarmy in 1975 upon completion of service.48 hours later I was the Chief Engineer in the mining division of Ingersoll-Rand(South Africa)Pty Ltd.
During my service in Rhodesia we had NO camo painted small arms whatever.
We were however taking brand new and never issued SAVAGE/STEVENS No4MkI* rifles out of their original packing and turning them into assault course rifles by welding the bolts to the receiver rings after first drilling a hole in the chamber and big stick welding a blob in the hole.All the rifles were bogging with cosmoline and we had a few fires.Shame that but orders were orders and all that.
Brand new SA R1M1 FN-FAL's and ther aforementioned Lyttleton Engineering/ARMSKOR converted to 7.62x51mmNATO MkI and MkII Brens as well as everything else including the Savage/Stevens No4's had a RA (Rhodesian Army) and a number pantograph engraved on it.My FN was RA 9918 and the numbers were on the upper receiver just below the ejection port on the right with the same number on the lower receiver,breech block and carrier.Interestingly enough the SA supplied FN's arrived at Army Workshops at KGVI Bks with ONLY a 6 digit serial number and NOTHING else that would denote SA origin.We had Uzi's(Belgian Built)Sterling SMG's(Brit) Browning HP's(Cdn and Belgian)P1's(P.38's with just a dot in a circle(Manurhin methinks) and the serial number)Star Model B's in 9mm Para and MAG-58's along with a few leftover Brit GPMG's.Brit L1A1 FN's from Federal Days(many were RNG marked (Rhodesia /Nyasaland Govt) and 500 Lithgow L1A1's that the Aussies had shipped via RAIL to Kenny the kaffir in Zambia from Durbs by the Sea.Some sharp eyed Rhodesia Railways oke spotted this on the waybills so the rifles were"confiscated" and being brand new were also RA numbered and issued to the Goffel Road Protection Coy's.SMG's interestingly enough were usually issued to farmer's wives and coloured Service Corps types.a "REAL" soldier got a rifle.
RhodAF were issuing WWII M2 Brownings in .303" as door guns in their Allouette IIIC's(firing SA MkVIII .303 ball and tracer) and after I left the army were issuing them too on pedastal mounts in vehicles for convoy protection.
Only .50 Cal M2 Browning I knew of was in the Museum in Gwelo which was a pity because I once ordered trenches dug (for a Classical War Exercise)alongside the old runways at Brady Bks just outside Byo and we hit a vein of buried in 1945 LINKED 50 cal ammo that was as good as the day it was buried in a bulldozed pit when the Commonwealth Air Training Programme closed down at WWII's end.We found tens of thousands of rds ALL EC4(Eau Claire 1944)headstamped.

I ALSO had an even dozen BRAND NEW Long Branch No4MkI*(T)'s in my lockup at KG VI that were never issued.ALL were 1945 dated 90L's with No32Mk3 scopes.I have often wondered if the munts sold them to the Brits arms dealers or if they kept them.Pity to cast pearls before swine like that lot and I mean BOTH the munts and the Brit Dealers.Could also be part of Madgrabe's retirement fund I suppose.
As a first year CPT for pay purposes but getting FULL pay and allowances from my company and driving an Olds 442(not very far on 25 Litres a month petrol ration)I had LOTS of money and nothing to spend it on.I was paid more than Peter Walls the Army Commander PLUS half the high priced help in the "Corridors" as Army HQ was called.I was REALLY happy to get to Jo'Burg where the girls were so pretty and you could actually BUY something with your money after 18 months in that man's army.I did an appreciation for Gen Walls in May 1974 in which I detailed/forecast that which was to come and for which he was ready to have me shot(said so too) and my FIRST prognostication was that the porks/pork and cheeses were going to throw in the towel within 6 weeks...I was FOUR weeks off.TWO weeks later we were watching Frelimo AND the Porks walking arm in arm in Villa Manica."Nao fash mal".
Oh well, sic transit gloria mundi I suppose.I really SHOULD do some work here this morning.

Cheers all,JR

[hagar in SC]

JR, reading your post was priceless! I am an ex SADF soldier myself, and visited Rhodesia twice, 1977 and 79. Had a cousin in the SAS there that was a badass, and the best natural shot I ever saw. These days he is running hunting safaris, have not heard from him in years and no way to get in touch with him. Smuggled my SADF R1 into Rhodesia in 77 hidden behind my car seat as it was a scary place to be, thankfullly I was not searched, but I am sure the Rhodesians would have been happy to have it, and the SADF VERY unhappy..

[Peter Laidler]

VERY interesting thread JohnR. We had a little intelligence booklet relating to weapon markings of the various nations and subversives etc of the era and it stated that RNG was Royal Nepal Government (Nepal had a king then of course). Maybe this needs clarifying if anyone else can shed a bit of light on the subject.

Can we have part 2, the continuing saga now John!