Long Branch serial number listing

[limpetmine]

G'Day Folks,

Just received this absolute gem of a 1941 No 4 Mk 1 Long Branch. Rear sight is a Type 1 with 'circle P' (ROF Poole - post-war production as I understand from Mr Laidler's advice...) and no sign of FTR markings. Without stripping the rifle as far as I can tell, the wood and steel work are all matching numbers. Some Base Wksp maintenance has been done, the rear sight is an indication.

Am very keen to learn more about the provenance of this beaut rifle, so by all means let me know the things you do about this one. I am completely smitten by this one and its sitting alongside my '43 Savage from down 'cross the border.

Hope this is of interest.

Attachment 81227Attachment 81228Attachment 81229Attachment 81230Attachment 81231Attachment 81232

Nice rifle, however I wonder about the butt disc. These were not used, so I'm scratching my head. I hope someone didn't cut it in in its former life. I see the serial on the heel, brass butt plate, English backsight as you mentioned. Is the front band split or solid? Serialed magazine.
Nice nice rifle. You should hang onto it.

[22SqnRAE]

I am envious - having trouble locating this level of No.4 here in Texas. Patience I guess...

Others more expert can comment, but very interested in the cocking piece. Yours looks just like the First Variation on my SMLE Mk III* from 1916. Stratton shows a First Variation for the No. 4, but it is dished and round. My SMLE is 'D' shaped, flat, and knurled around the perimeter, like yours.

If Long Branch didn't start production until 1940, what were they doing with an early 1900's-era SMLE part? Did the Brits ship over stock?

WW2Buff, the Mark I cocking piece was originally used on all No 4 rifles, as it was the design carried over from the No 1 MK III* rifle. As time, production, cost and expedience dictated, manufacturers sought cheaper, quicker solutions, hence the Mark II or 'normal' straight sided cocking piece with vertical grooves for grip were implemented. Not too sure about shipping stock, I'd think it was more a case of how early production lines were set up for milling. The UK didn't really have spare anything at the time the US and Canada were gearing up for production, I'd suggest. It's interesting to read through historical references and see what variations were in common use. We seem to be set in our impressions by much of what's in the market at the moment, and the amount of modification to Service rifles post war in refit/FTR/Base maintenance is quite substantial.

Looking through Ian Skennerton's "The Lee-Enfield, a centenary of Lee-Metford and Lee-Enfield Rifles and Carbines" (Skennerton, Labrador, 2007) in Chapter 9 "North American Production" it's evident that many of the earlier No 4 Mk 1 and 1* produced by both Long Branch and Savage had the Mark 1 'button' cocking piece. A curiosity, but not something to get too worked up about, I'd think, noting earlier the many variations of components that occurred during war time and after. Certainly makes this No 4 Mk 1 (no star!) that little bit different.

[22SqnRAE]

Nice rifle, however I wonder about the butt disc. These were not used, so I'm scratching my head. I hope someone didn't cut it in in its former life. I see the serial on the heel, brass butt plate, English backsight as you mentioned. Is the front band split or solid? Serialed magazine.
Nice nice rifle. You should hang onto it.

G'Day limpetmine, good point and I'm with you on the curiosity. I don't think the butt disk is genuine as it's a little too shiny, neat and with uniform surface finish marks. Now was there a former brass butt disk in its place? I can't say yet (have not pulled the rifle apart to components to clean, inspect and photograph). I wouldn't be too surprised if there was a butt disk in it originally, as there is not a lot of difference between the butts of the No 1 Mk III* and the No 4 Mk 1 rifle. However, as you point out, it is a curiosity. I can't say much more yet and I genuinely hope it's not been installed by an over-enthusiastic former owner throughout this rifle's 75 year life.

The front band is solid and has slipped a little in it's usage. There is a dent in the rear of the band, possibly made by a former owner to keep it in position within the reinforced section of the front hand guard. More investigation required on that.

I'll certainly hang on to this one,and my Savage, of course. I feel quite excited to have two North American No 4's in the collection. The trouble is, what do I shoot with? I may.... have to buy a Maltby or Shirley competition rifle for the weekend...

Never say never, he committed to...

[WW2Buff]

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. My point was that your First Variation cocking piece looks like the one on early SMLE Mk III*'s, and that they were a different design to the No. 4 First Variation, or Mk I. See photos below.

The first photo is my 1916 SMLE Mk III*, showing the 'D' shape and knurled edges, just like yours. The second shows the round, more dished No. 4 button.

Not trying to detract in any way from your beautiful find, just pointing out what I think might be an interesting variation.

[22SqnRAE]

WW2Buff, thanks for the response, I don't think I took your query the wrong way, hope my words didn't convey otherwise. The vagaries of wartime production and components leads me to be a little broader in acceptance of variations than some may choose to be. Your comment was taken as being curious, as I am about the cocking piece. Can't offer a definitive hypothesis as to why it's the Mark 1 type, but think it's unlikely to be a No 1 Mk III or III* component.

Perhaps some one will have better info to enlighten us both? Anyone out there...?

[Seaforth72]

The Mark I cocking piece used on the No. 4
MK.I rifles was a carryover from the No. 1 MK. VI Trials rifles of curds 1930. It was also used on the Trials No.4 MK.I rifles (1931-1933 period) and on the 1941 and into 1942 production of the British, Canadian and US made No.4 rifles.

It was designed to lessen the risk of injury to the web of the right hand during bayonet fighting. It was laborious to make so to speed up production, simplified versions were introduced. The earlier versions of the MK.I cocking piece from the 1930s had a lateral screw (from the side) and later Mark I versions had the end screw. Gradually the flat sided cocking pieces MK.II were introduced into production. Most had the vertical grooves but some were wartime economy with smooth sides.

The SMLE rifles had the button type cocking piece but during the later half of "The Great War" (WWI) they went to the simplified flat sided cocking piece with vertical grooves.

[WW2Buff]

I understand and agree with everything you have said, Seaforth, but I am sticking to my point that the button cocking pieces on the early SMLE Mk III* and the early No. 4 Mk 1 and Mk 1* are different. They are shaped differently ('D' versus round) and they have knurled versus smooth edges.

Further to and consistent with OP 22's photos and mine, here are SMLE early cocking pieces:

https://www.libertytreecollectors.co...&idcategory=62

LEE ENFIELD NO.1 MK III* PART, COCKING PIECE, FIRST VARIATION,Lithgow MARKED | eBay

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And here is the early No. 4 button, also consistent with Stratton Vol. 2 page 61:

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=22276

Pics of my 1942 Long Branch #4 Mk. 1

I apologize in advance if I'm not supposed to copy these types of links to the forum. And I'm surely not trying to be overly argumentative here, but I still think I've got a valid point and an interesting observation. How did that early SMLE button end up on 22's No. 4?

[Fussyboy/51]

Just got a 1943 Long Branch No.4 Mk1*, MKIII site, Grooved Hand guard, Steel Butt Plate and Serial 88L0103

[browningautorifle]

Here's a link to Fussyboy/51 rifle, hand stamped number...have a look...strange? https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....801#post392801

[72guns92]

No4Mk1* Long Branch 1942 ser# is matching on the barrel,reciever, and bolt. ser#3L1599, the stock that was on it Bubba had his grinder work trying to sporterized it. I ordered a stock set and a upperband from springfield sporter. I only had 30 buck in it before I ordered the stock set. got about $190 in now. it does have inport marking form CDI Swan VT.[ATTACH]Attachment 81474[/ATTACH]