reloading 303.

[Edward Horton]

Rick

On American made Winchester and Remington cases the shoulder of the case let alone the neck of the case is over a 1/4 inch from where it belongs on the military Enfield rifle.



If you noticed Optimists first case failure was a cracked neck on his destruction test of his .303 cases. Why would I want to stress the necks even more by forming a false shoulder. Why would I want to go to all the trouble of wrapping masking tape around the base of the case when all I have to do is slip a o-ring around the case and be done with it.

Rick if you like your time consuming method of fire forming cases better then by all means use it, If you can prove the o-ring doesn't hold the case against the bolt face then please prove it. If you can prove the o-ring doesn't center the rear of the case in the chamber then please prove it.

What you do NOT understand is WHY I'm pushing the o-ring method of fire forming cases, the reason is simple. We have people telling us that we should grease or lube our cases to fire form them and this creates MORE bolt thrust and excess bolt thrust can damage any rifle.

In 1929 the British military told us to not lube our cases and keep the chamber oil free.





In 2008 the United States Military told us to NOT lube our cartridge cases.





Rick, we have an American moderator in another forum telling everyone that the British, Canadians and Australians can't make an Enfield rifle with a centered chamber. (Honest to God) The reason he states this is because his cases are warped and banana shaped. The reason these American cases are warped and banana shaped is because the rear of American cases have smaller base diameters than "foreign" made cases, and they are NOT centered in the rear of the chamber when fired.

The second reason these American .303 cases are warped and banana shaped is because they are not made to military standards like the Prvi Partizan cases are. These European CIP cases are over .010 thicker than American made .303 ammunition and I would rate them just as good if not better than American Lake City Match cases.

Below is one of my warped banana shaped "American" cases fired in one of my Enfield Rifles. I do NOT blame the British Enfield rifle for this, I blame our American made SAAMI cases that do not fit the military Enfield chamber.



In closing Rick this is a British Enfield forum and I don't feel the need to talk about long dead American gun writers who didn't give a rats A$$ about the Enfield rifle. I like to keep things simple (KISS) and false shoulders and masking tape is not on my agenda. ANYONE can slip an o-ring around a case and fire factory loaded ammunition or to fire form cases. I also don't see the need to over complicate the matter by adding "false shoulders" and masking tape to the issue.

What I have said here Rick is my opinion about the rubber o-ring method of fire forming cases that was posted by a Canadian at the old Jouster Enfield forum and I see NO reason to change it. To each his own, it works for me





You set your sight for 400 yards with these pistol bullet reduced loads for fire forming your cases.
You pull the trigger and wait....................................

to hear the bullet hit the target at 100 yards



Now WHY would I want to mess with a good thing?

[ireload2]

A lot of the banana shaped cases come from the fact that the front end of the bolt is hanging out in the wind with no lateral support with a bolt head mounted in losey goosey threads.
Then the asymmetrical receiver takes all the load just behind the magazine box. The result is sort like stretching an irregular rubber band. The front end of the bolt trys to yaw to the right aided by the extractor pushing side ways on the slot in the barrel.

[Edward Horton]

In the 1970s the American Rifleman Magazine did a long article on warped banana shaped cases fired in the M14 rifle. The culprit was small base diameter cases and uneven case wall thickness, this caused the off center case to expand more on one side when fired and when resized the cases warped and pushed the base of the case off center with the bore of the rifle.

The American Rifleman Magazine didn't blame the M14 rifle for having a losey goosey bolt. The fault lay with the cartridge case and its manufacturing methods.

Below you can see how the larger base diameter Prvi Partizan cartridge case and thicker case walls can "PREVENT" a warped banana shaped case. The Prvi Partizan cases have a larger base diameter and thicker case walls compared to the Greek HXP case which were fired in the "SAME" Enfield Rifle.



The losey goosey No.4 bolt head below was caused by bolt thrust wear on the mating surfaces between the bolt body and bolt head. Please remember to remove all oil and grease from your chamber before firing your *Enfield rifle.

*Warning printed in the 1929 British Textbook of Small Arms.

[Bruce_in_Oz]

If your bolt head is "hanging out in the wind" at the point of firing, you may have some serious problems with "galloping decrepitude" in your rifle.

The very front end of the bolt head is SUPPOSED to be inside the rear breeching ring of the receiver at the point of lock-up. In this position, for the bolt to be blown out if the receiver, the right side rail must stretch a fair bit. Mr Hatcher and Mr Ackley demonstrated this method of rifle dis-assembly whilst comparing action strengths decades ago. The right-side rail is the weakest part of a Lee-Enfield action. You will NEVER shear off the right-side bolt lug nor blow the rear of the receiver out before the right-side rail stretches and releases the pressure under a modicum of control.

Under lesser assault, the extractor may disappear to parts unknown and the fired case will assume an interesting configuration, but the action will not fail explosively.

However, if your rifle is 60-plus years old, and has not been near an ordnance depot for at least fifty years, all bets are off. The combination of worn components, "reconditioned" chambers and undersized brass is a recipe for excitement.

Headspace is the first thing to check; and the closer to minimum the better. The good-old .303 being a rimmed case means that this is simply the distance between the rear of the barrel and the front of the bolt face. This is much easier to establish than the relationship between known planes and imaginary lines on conical surfaces in rimless jobs.

Boltheads should not be able to be rotated more than 20 degrees past alignment with the main rib / RHS lug on the bolt. And so on. There are numerous references in the Knowledge Library and in tree-ware publications.

Very few of us own mint originals of these rifles. Using them causes wear, abusing them causes damage. I would like to continue using them for many years, however, as with vintage aircraft, there is a point beyond which one should not push one's luck.

[chevy1981enfield1943]

Rick

On American made Winchester and Remington cases the shoulder of the case let alone the neck of the case is over a 1/4 inch from where it belongs on the military Enfield rifle.



If you noticed Optimists first case failure was a cracked neck on his destruction test of his .303 cases. Why would I want to stress the necks even more by forming a false shoulder. Why would I want to go to all the trouble of wrapping masking tape around the base of the case when all I have to do is slip a o-ring around the case and be done with it.

Rick if you like your time consuming method of fire forming cases better then by all means use it, If you can prove the o-ring doesn't hold the case against the bolt face then please prove it. If you can prove the o-ring doesn't center the rear of the case in the chamber then please prove it.

What you do NOT understand is WHY I'm pushing the o-ring method of fire forming cases, the reason is simple. We have people telling us that we should grease or lube our cases to fire form them and this creates MORE bolt thrust and excess bolt thrust can damage any rifle.

In 1929 the British military told us to not lube our cases and keep the chamber oil free.





In 2008 the United States Military told us to NOT lube our cartridge cases.





Rick, we have an American moderator in another forum telling everyone that the British, Canadians and Australians can't make an Enfield rifle with a centered chamber. (Honest to God) The reason he states this is because his cases are warped and banana shaped. The reason these American cases are warped and banana shaped is because the rear of American cases have smaller base diameters than "foreign" made cases, and they are NOT centered in the rear of the chamber when fired.

The second reason these American .303 cases are warped and banana shaped is because they are not made to military standards like the Prvi Partizan cases are. These European CIP cases are over .010 thicker than American made .303 ammunition and I would rate them just as good if not better than American Lake City Match cases.

Below is one of my warped banana shaped "American" cases fired in one of my Enfield Rifles. I do NOT blame the British Enfield rifle for this, I blame our American made SAAMI cases that do not fit the military Enfield chamber.



In closing Rick this is a British Enfield forum and I don't feel the need to talk about long dead American gun writers who didn't give a rats A$$ about the Enfield rifle. I like to keep things simple (KISS) and false shoulders and masking tape is not on my agenda. ANYONE can slip an o-ring around a case and fire factory loaded ammunition or to fire form cases. I also don't see the need to over complicate the matter by adding "false shoulders" and masking tape to the issue.

What I have said here Rick is my opinion about the rubber o-ring method of fire forming cases that was posted by a Canadian at the old Jouster Enfield forum and I see NO reason to change it. To each his own, it works for me





You set your sight for 400 yards with these pistol bullet reduced loads for fire forming your cases.
You pull the trigger and wait....................................

to hear the bullet hit the target at 100 yards



Now WHY would I want to mess with a good thing?

any chance tis load could put down a Pennsylvania white tail at 100-200 yards?

[spinecracker]

Thanks to this excellent discussion, I feel that I will have to begin to reload in the very near future. I will be ransacking the local libraries for books on reloading, then putting together a very basic reloading kit (classic Lee Loader, good scales, etc). As I do not get to the range as often as I would wish (once or twice a month), there is no need for an expensive setup right now. I have just finished shimming and cork bedding my 1949 FTRed No.4 Mk.1 (as per the very clear instructions I gleaned from this forum), and it will be interesting to see how she handles with commercial ammo versus reloads.

[Edward Horton]

no4mk1shooter

I would "NOT" recommend this case forming plinking load for deer hunting, it is a lightly constructed pistol bullet with a softer lead core than a rifle bullet. The velocity is approximately 1700-1800 fps and it could blow up on the surface after hitting deer size game.

The entire idea behind this load is $$$ COST $$$. A cheap .312 pistol bullet and 18 grains of IMR-4759 a large bulky powder designed for reduced loads. With IMR-4759 unlike pistol powders it is impossible to double charge the case which makes it a safer load. The soft lead core of the pistol bullet helps this bullet when fired to fill the bore and make it more accurate.

You can go to the range with this load and shoot 100-200 rounds and your shoulder would still be ready for 200 more rounds.



The idea for this load came from the old Speer #9 loading manual, BUT it is for the 100 grain .308 Speer plinker and not the .312 diameter bullet. The Hornady .312 "IS" a safe load, look at the bottom of the 150 grain bullet load and you will see a load of 25 grains of IMR-4759 with a 150 grain bullet.

[chevy1981enfield1943]

no4mk1shooter

I would "NOT" recommend this case forming plinking load for deer hunting, it is a lightly constructed pistol bullet with a softer lead core than a rifle bullet. The velocity is approximately 1700-1800 fps and it could blow up on the surface after hitting deer size game.

well, it was worth asking. thanks for the info, at $16 per hundred which is less than half the cost of the projectiles I am currently using for plinking one would be foolish not to go with your advise and the results on your target are worth every penny. thanks

also, what is the O.A.L. on your rounds?

[Edward Horton]

no4mk1shooter

I have not tried different bullet O.A.L. yet and to be truthful I don't think I even moved the bullet seater from the normal 150 gr bullet setting. Don't get me wrong but its a pistol bullet and its six feet away from touching the rifling anyway. So I do think moving the bullet in or out is going to make a big difference, a longer cast bullet "yes" a really "short" pistol bullet no. A pistol bullet has a long way to "jump" before it hits the rifing.

I would recommend the .312 150 gr or 174 gr Hornady for deer hunting, they have the "inter-lock" feature and will hold together just like a Nosler partition. If you check and do a search on the 150 gr Hornady you will find the most popular load is 37-38 grains of IMR-4895 and many people use it for deer hunting.

[ireload2]

In the years since the American Rifleman article there have been tens of thousands of rounds fired in all sorts of rifles with all sorts of brass.

The only bananas that were found came out of a Lee-Enfield brand banana maker.
No other brands of banana makers have be found. Even the tilting bolt Hakim does not produce bananas in spite of the fact that it's bolt must tilt up and down to lock and unlock.
The same brass that some attribute the problem to can be reformed to other round such as the 6.5X53R Dutch Mannlicher and reloaded many times without case head separations or bananas resulting.