Footsteps of Sparrow Force

[Ian Skennerton]

Hi Doug,
Yes, there were a number of snipers with the 2/2 Ind. Coy. on East Timor, issued with the .303 Rifle No.3 Mk I*(T) which has the Periscopic Prism telescope. These were late Great War vintage and appear in a number of Damien Parer's photographs and footage. Two such photos are found on page 200 of my 'British Sniper' book.
Ian

[Surpmil]

That rifle shows up several times in the film, in one case in such a way that I got the impression the film makers were emphasizing its presence. Another man shown holding one was bearded IRRC.

[Ian Skennerton]

I thought I replied on this thread before but can't see it posted. Maybe I clicket the wrong button.
Yes, the 2/2nd Ind. Coy. had a number of designated snipers in their 4 companies (A, B C and D). Possibly as many as one for each section. I have seen at least three different men with the Patt.14 sniper rifles, their issue was likely more than a dozen sniper units on East Timor.
Ian

[Badger]

I thought I replied on this thread before but can't see it posted. Maybe I clicket the wrong button.

Hello Ian ...

Yes, you did reply (see first post at top of page 2 of thread) ...

Long threads divide up into multiple pages after a dozen or so posts per page. If you scroll to Top (see top button for short cut) of thread or scroll to bottom of thread and look at the top right or bottom right corner of display, you'll see Page 1 of x or Page 2 of x etc.

Simply select which page you want or click the small arrows to move back and forth between pages in the entire thread. If you scroll to bottom of thread and select the button +Reply to Thread, the software automatically goes the the last post in the thread regardless of page and let's you create a new post to add on.

Hope that helps ...

Regards,
Doug

[841NER]

Hi to Son, from the sunny Gold Coast,
If you can give us your uncle's name and service number, I can likely help you with his unit. He could have been 8th Division taken at Singapore, Black Force on Java, Gull Force on Ambon, or Sparrow Force on Timor. It is such a pity that we are losing history with the passing of every WW2 veteran.
Ian

Completely agree with that last sentiment. There really is an urgency in all this work while we have the amazing resource of living memory. Brad, I can help with Service research, I am carrying out my own for M and Z units at present. Veteran's Name creates a shortlist, most likely deduction can do the work from there. Service Number is best and immediate in terms of retrieving records. Let me know if I can be of any help.

Forgot to mention. On sniper rifles; I know an infantrymen trained in Syria as a sniper after an exceptional performance in Africa, Greece and Crete. He was issued a Ross and was very concerned about running out of the rimless ammo. We will be releasing his award winning autobiography as an eBook shortly.

[Surpmil]

That sounds a lot like Tom Barker, was it? When I exchanged emails with him before his passing, he had the idea that his rifle was a Ross. After sending him photos of the various rifles and discussing the details of the rifle that he was certain about, it became clear that he could only have had an Alex Martin P14 with offset Aldis No2 or 3 scope. This of course would fit the timeframe of Crete in 1941.

There seems to have been some confusion of the Ross and the P14 elsewhere. I suspect the projecting barrel and one piece stock were the features that stuck in the minds of the average soldier and may have led to the confusion.

A Ross using rimless ammo could only be a .280 and I've never heard of any being issued for sniper use, although some were used privately in WWI.

More info about this would be interesting.

[Terry Hawker]

Gents and Ladies,

Probably premature in posting this before I've taken any photos, but thought it might be of interest.

In my collection is the rifle listed in the title. Chances are it has seen service under both designations. It is a Winchester, serial 191511, wearing a Periscopic Prism Company Ltd. Model 1918 scope, bearing the barred-out serial number 165730. The bolt is mismatched, and, somewhere along the way, it has received an Eddystone barrel. In past correspondence, Ian has kindly revealed that when these rifles went to disposal, the rifles were in one pile, some with bolts removed, while the scopes were in another pile, so it would appear that mismatches are more common than not.

Original condition being a lost cause, two of our more esteemed Milsurps members were instrumental in getting the old girl back into original trim, as Brian Dick supplied a fine-adjustment rear sight that he had found in New Zealand, (replacing the standard rear sight it had), and Peter Laidler, through Brian, supplied the heavy-duty, excellent quality, leather scope covers he had made.

As these rifles saw service right through the Korean War, who can say how many of these replaced parts actually occurred during its service life? The better condition of the scope's finish leads me to suspect it is a post-service mating, but I'll never know for sure. The woodwork, receiver and rest of the rifle certainly have a "been-there, done-that" look about them, but the mismatched parts could possibly be post-service. Doesn't matter, I'll never sell it.

Assemblage or not, it is one of my favorite Brit sniping rifles, and what makes it so is what is stamped on the right-rear sight ear. Appearing to have been stamped about the same time as the relocated serial number, and, to the left and just above it, is "D /l\ D", with a "2" stamped just above the small broad arrow between the two "D"s, and "2 4 7 " stamped directly below the government ownership mark. If this marking indicates Second AIF, 2/47 Bn., according to Osprey Publishing's, Elite No. 153, "The Australian Army in World War II" by Mark Johnston, this rifle may very well have served on Bougainville at Wau-Salamaua.

Don't think I have any other WW II British arm that is unit marked, other than the more general "RAF" marked handguns, and, this rifle is obviously in poorer condition than any of my other sniping rifles, but, I have the impression that this rifle actually did what it was intended to do, something its pristine safe-mates can't attest to. I just love this old warrior.

Terry

[Ian Skennerton]

The Patt. '14 sniper with Patt. '18 scope is certainly a classic, its archilles heel being the WW1 scope, which is why Australian production for the No.1 Mk III*H.T. used an etched crystalex graticule in its WW2 Oz remake by A.O.C. Victoria. With the shortages of sniper rifles before the No.4(T) became available, Great War telescopic sights were mounted on Winchester No.3 rifles by Alex. Martin in Glasgow to become the No.3 Mk I* T.A.

Regarding use in the islands by Australian forces, I don't think they were a regulation infantry battalion issue. Sparrow Force on West Timor does not seem to have used them, only the commandos (2/2nd Ind. Coy.) on East Timor. My dad (2/11th Field Coy. in Sparrow Force) used to talk of the unit 'marksman' and that he was 'second to the marksman'. But he never talked of scope-mounted rifles. Commando units operated in the island campaigns and undoubtedly used the scope mounted No.3 rifles. The .303 No.1 Mk III* H.T. appears to have been available at the very end of the war in the Pacific and may not have seen active service.

Snipers rule!
Ian

[841NER]

That sounds a lot like Tom Barker, was it? When I exchanged emails with him before his passing, he had the idea that his rifle was a Ross. After sending him photos of the various rifles and discussing the details of the rifle that he was certain about, it became clear that he could only have had an Alex Martin P14 with offset Aldis No2 or 3 scope. This of course would fit the timeframe of Crete in 1941.

There seems to have been some confusion of the Ross and the P14 elsewhere. I suspect the projecting barrel and one piece stock were the features that stuck in the minds of the average soldier and may have led to the confusion.

A Ross using rimless ammo could only be a .280 and I've never heard of any being issued for sniper use, although some were used privately in WWI.

More info about this would be interesting.

Hi Surpmil,

The infantryman I mentioned is very much still with us. I will find out more and get back to you.

Dean

[Surpmil]

Hi Surpmil,

The infantryman I mentioned is very much still with us. I will find out more and get back to you.

Dean

Thank you I look forward to it. Let me know by PM if I can assist in any way.