New fixer-upper 1891 Carcano Cavalry Carbine

[jmoore]

Jmoore's Carcano Carbine above and Aragorn243's below:




Never cleaned mine, particularly. Is it original?

They're both pretty nifty! Just think, at least two different rear sight variations and NINE or so bayonet lock variants! It's a whole mini collectors' genre...

[Patrick Chadwick]

Where "the "old railroad tie" surface - grease and dirt is not something to be preserved!" statement comes from, I am not sure?

From me, actually. I don't restrict myself to repeating what other people have already said!

Thanks for publishing the photos of original Carcano slings, the best I have yet seen. The last one seems to have an extraordinary number of of holes. Was it perhaps a "one size fits all" model for eveything right back to the original 1891 long rifle?

Patrick

[Cruisey]

I am not sure about the sling. I think it may be a cut-down of a long rifle sling. But I am not a sling expert, and I hope someone else has an idea!

Patrick

It looks like a Belgian FN 49 sling, a comparison can be had here FN 49 Sling

Cheers,
David

[Aragorn243]

It looks like a Belgian FN 49 sling, a comparison can be had here FN 49 Sling

Cheers,
David

Without measuring it, I would say that is exactly what it is. Thanks.

[Patrick Chadwick]

The Citris Strip removed the original varnish and color/stain and that really affected the value of the piece.

To clarify this matter, here is some info that is not my opinion, where I can tell you "where the statement comes from":

"As a rule, the stocks were preserved from moisture by being treated with hot linseed oil and stained dark brown. Some of the later beech stocks, that replaced the missing walnut from 1916 on, were not stained and remained rather light in color. Varnishing was probably first applied post-1945, but this has not yet been clarified."

OK, that was my translation, but if you want the original, then go to "Il Novantuno" by Wolfgang Riepe, P.82.

So: yes to original treatment with linseed oil, (probably) no to original varnishing on a pre-war rifle, and a "could be either way" for original staining. And a general recommendation for caution when judging surfaces by photos. Remember it is always AFAICSWAHTOIMH. (As Far As I Can See Without Actually Having The Object In My Hands)

Patrick

[gew8805]

Patrick an excellent post with good information from the current "best source" on information on the "91", Riepe's book is highly thought of. I do have to say that I do not own a copy since it is in German which I can not read so I will have to struggle along with "Il 91" by Simone, Belogi and Grimaldi which I can barely struggle through. I'll have to depend on correct translations of Riepe from people like you, like the statement below:

"As a rule, the stocks were preserved from moisture by being treated with hot linseed oil and stained dark brown. Some of the later beech stocks, that replaced the missing walnut from 1916 on, were not stained and remained rather light in color. Varnishing was probably first applied post-1945, but this has not yet been clarified."

This is good and verifiable information from someone who has studied the Carcano and original Italian documents. But (there is always a "but...") I do have to remind everyone that the stain is applied first before the linseed (or flax seed) oil, especially on beechwood stocks. Beech is a very finely grained wood and takes a stain with difficulty, that is one reason that it is so easily removed when refinishing. The hot oil (also called a varnish) is applied by dunking after the stain since stain in the oil will not penetrate the wood well. After the dunking in the hot oil, the oil is wiped off and allowed to dry, leaving a finish in and on the wood. That oil finish (what I was calling varnish) is what we saw as the rough, dirty looking substance on the stock over the stain. We have to remember that varnishes used before WW2 almost everywhere for military firearms were oil-based and can be confused with pure linseed or flax seed oil. Had Aragorn243 used a less destructive method on the stock he may have been able to remove the degraded oil/varnish without disturbing the stain that was still in the wood and then been able to keep the stock looking as it did when new. Of course, it is Aragorn243's gun and it is his to do with as he sees fit.

I am glad that you enjoyed the picture I posted of the Italian slings and I have to say that they are not my slings. They are as follows:

The top sling is an Italian sling adopted during WW2 using the German style buckle of the Kar98k sling on one end and a button on the other. They were primarily supposed to have been for the Italian submachinegun but are also seen in period photographs in use with Italian carbines and short rifles.

The middle sling is called by the Italians "cinghia per fucile modello 91 (in cuoio lavorato col colore naturale) con due bottoni" or "sling for rifle model 91 (in finished leather with natural color) with two buttons". This was the primary sling for the M91 longrifle and all short rifles with wide sling swivels like the M91 T.S. and M91/24. It is 1.25 inches wide - much wider than the other two illustrated - and has two buttons, one at either end with slots cut in the leather that allow it to be adjusted to length during use. These are very hard to find and seem to have fallen out of use well before the end of WW2.

The bottom sling is, at least here in the US, the most commonly seen Italian sling. It is adjustable by a single brass or steel buckle with a tongue and uses a brass or steel button. It is sized with a length that allows it to be used on the longrifle and of a width allowing it to be used on any of the rifles or carbines. This is the original Carcano carbine sling but was long enough to use on the rifle as well. It was, to a certain extent, replaced by the top sling but will be seen in use by the Italians from the earliest days of the Carcano until at least the 1950s.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Mmm, I'm in a difficult position here - I have to (partially) agree with both of you!

If the surface on Aragorn's rifle was just a grubby oil finish, then it might have been possible to simply wash it down with natural turpentine, which would have fired up the wood again. Maybe. On the other hand, Aragorn, who actually had it in his hands, and is no raw beginner, judged that there was no original finish worth preserving.

For my own rifles, I simply take the standpoint of a practical shooter, and do whatever it takes to get the rifle shooting properly. That means that, for instance, I might not bother to clean up the woodwork overmuch, thus "preserving the original finish" through plain creative laziness rather than collector's idealism. On the other hand, I will not hesitate to freshen up a damaged crown* so that the rifle shoots properly - regardless of any antique aspects - because I want a functioning rifle, not a wallhanger, however original that wallhanger may be. It was, after all, built to shoot, not to be decorative!

Patrick


*by the absolutely minimal amount necessary!

[Aragorn243]

As staining would have been done prior to final assembly of the rifle in its original manufacture, the stain would have been applied to all surfaces of the wood, including the barrel channels and the inside of the magazine wells. The color of the wood on the interior surfaces was all the light color which the exterior surfaces are now. This rifle was dirty, not stained.

linseed oil or flax oil are called drying oils and are an ingredient of some varnishes but they are not varnishes and should not be called as such. Military oil finishes are designed to penetrate the wood, varnish is designed to provide a hard protective coating on the surface of the wood. Varnish is not a very effective protection for military rifles. The shellac used by the Soviets is the only common hard surface coating applied to military arms and anyone that owns one can attest that it is not the best finish to maintain.

[gew8805]

Patrick, you should not consider yourself to be in any kind of an uncomfortable position in this discussion at all, you have handled everything very well. I know that I feel that way and I am sure that Aragorn243 feels the same. The discussion has been pleasant and completely proper.

Aragorn243, there are many definitions of the word varnish.
Merriam-Webster states: varnish - a liquid preparation that when applied to a surface dries to form a hard lustrous typically transparent coating.
This usually contains solvents and driers to assist in drying, penetration and durability but can also be a pure oil finish as is seen well back in arms history. On a wood like beech, where due to denseness of grain does not allow easy penetration, a pure oil finish or varnish will not penetrate well and lies on the surface and tends to crack, crinkle and otherwise deteriorate as was seen on you carbine. You chose to remove the unsightly finish and that can be fine but it is preferable in the collecting world to leave it alone or at least do minimal "damage" to that finish as long as any original coloring (stain) is left alone. Now, you chose to remove the stain along with the finish and that is perfectly okay due to the use that you want to put it to. While in pure collecting circles it will degrade the financial worth of the piece, it does make it visually more attractive and that is acceptable in the collecting area of shooter or user grade. And the argument can always be made that in some rare instances no stain was used or it was so thin that it is hardly noticeable on the beech stocks.

What I am saying is that you have done well and restored to use a carbine that has languished for years, unappreciated and unused. If I have offended you, I apologize. Use it in good health and, most of all, enjoy it.

I hope that the information that I posted on slings is helpful, there is also a relatively scarce cloth sling made and used during WW2 that is seen on a current thread on Gunboards.

---------- Post added at 10:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 AM ----------

I forgot to add that the shellac used on Russian rifles was a storage preservative only and was not intended to stay on the rifle in use. Shellac is a very different animal than varnish, it does not stand up to moisture or wear at all well while varnish can endure hard treatment and moisture quite well and, depending on the makeup of the varnish, can be restored quickly and well.

[Aragorn243]

I got a replacement sling today for the FN 49 sling I had on it. Looks to be the real deal. Matches known examples perfectly. Was stated to be an original, not a repro but who knows, price was right in either case. No markings on it that I can find.