Inland M1A1 serial # 194619

[Hercules Powder]

Inland M1A1 serial # 194619 Barrel date 1-43. Came from a dealer that was selling it for friend whose grandfather brought it back from the war (I know they all say that). Regardless if that is true or not this carbine had been hanging by the strap in a closet for a very long time untouched. It was much duller when I got it, not from rust but from light dust build.

I started thread on 3/24 WW2 repair Ordnance Depots in ETO and/or the PTO?
mainly for information on this carbine but also to understand what was done during the war in either theater to rebuild damage weapons and upgrades to current specs.

You will see in the photos on the left side of the stock is a stamp that looks like a rebuild stamp, but has different letters than in War Baby. It is not real clear; my best guess is either AHO, A110 or AIIO in a box. There is also a P in a box on the front of the grip. I am hoping this will be familiar to someone that can identify what it actually is.

I don’t doubt that it’s gone through a repair/upgrade of some sort with the changing of the rear sight, handguard (TN) and the bolt seems out range according to WB. If it has been through an arsenal rebuild wouldn’t the dogleg hammer been changed (no strikes on the rail from a type 3 hammer), replaced the type one trigger housing pin and removed the rest of the highwood. There is a knot at the lowest point where the piece of wood broke off.

This carbine is what it is! I believe it has been like this for a long time and will stay exactly as it is as long as it is in my possession. If it is a bring back that’s great. It’s a rebuild that’s fine too.

John



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Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[shadycon]

Looks like a fine example of an unmolested M1A1. I agree,LEAVE IT AS IS. Great find.

[firstflabn]

A boxed AAHO is an Augusta Arsenal rebuild stamp. See Brophy p. 567. Looks like that could very well be another A to the left of the clear A. The complete barreled receiver could have been installed in that stock any time, by anybody. The scattered info I have seen on postwar rebuild programs shows rebuild contracts in the tens of thousands of units, not hundreds of thousands or millions where there would be a better chance at uniformity. Never seen a document that says "well, OK, we rebuilt the last carbine today." Plenty of Korean War video with early configured carbines appearing.

At the beginning of the Korean War Truman had cut the defense budget to the bone. We knowingly used defective bazooka rounds in outmoded bazookas we knew were ineffective against T-34's because we had nothing better to offer. The Korean War followed by the development of the Russian ICBM kicked off the Cold War and its large defense budgets. It was just a different world budget wise, so looking for patterns is tough.

[Hercules Powder]

[QUOTE=firstflabn;167282]A boxed AAHO is an Augusta Arsenal rebuild stamp. See Brophy p. 567. Looks like that could very well be another A to the left of the clear A. The complete barreled receiver could have been installed in that stock any time, by anybody. The scattered info I have seen on postwar rebuild programs shows rebuild contracts in the tens of thousands of units, not hundreds of thousands or millions where there would be a better chance at uniformity. Never seen a document that says "well, OK, we rebuilt the last carbine today." Plenty of Korean War video with early configured carbines appearing.

At the beginning of the Korean War Truman had cut the defense budget to the bone. We knowingly used defective bazooka rounds in outmoded bazookas we knew were ineffective against T-34's because we had nothing better to offer. The Korean War followed by the development of the Russian ICBM kicked off the Cold War and its large defense budgets. It was just a different world budget wise, so looking for patterns is tough.[/QUOT

Thanks for your response.

What is "Brophy p. 567" ?

I think the action and stock have been together for a long time it not always. If you look at the picture of the receiver upside down there is a shiny rub marks in front of the trigger housing lug, there is an impression on the bridge of the stock that matches that. Note both sides of the trigger housing there shiny rub marks at the rear that match with impressions in the stock as well. I think that would have been caused by long term use which also created the indents on the trigger housing from the type 1 pin spring.

[Bruce McAskill]

Your carbine stock has been though at least one rebuild as firstflabn said at Augusta post war. The rear sight was changed most likely at the same time. Not all parts were upgraded during many of the early rebuilds but what ever carbine was in the M1A1 stock when it was rebuilt it was proof fired at Augusta and the P in the square box was stamped on the grip. The original factory proof P was in a circle on the rear of the stock or the left side of it. Over all you have a real nice early Inland in a nice M1A1 stock.

[firstflabn]

I'll switch sides now. Lots of anecdotal evidence of adjustable sights being installed on existing carbines during WWII. Besides the many anecdotes I have seen a document that shows the North Africa Theater (NATO - later to become MTO) in February '44 wanted to replace rear sights on a couple of hundred thousand carbines in their command. That obviously didn't happen, at least not in those quantities, but the point is the documentation still turns up to make us reconsider some opinions. It would be no embarrassment if a wartime sight replacement was performed on yours. For that matter, this WWII rear sight scenario could explain the handguard and bolt as well.

The transfer marks from metal to wood is good evidence, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen in civilian hands after stock replacment. 66 years is a long time. And Brophy is the author of a book on the '03 Springfield. He not only researched the period, he lived it. While his book pictures many arsenal rebuild stamps, the AAOH is only sketched, so we can't compare font. We still know very little about the postwar rebuild activities. I have an 03A3 with a Benecia Arsenal rebuild stamp on it (though with no doubt about it being a rebuild). That's kind of unusual too, so I understand the mental gymnastics involved in seeking info on an arsenal that didn't do alot of work on a particular type of weapon.

[topaz]

Very Nice, Its a Keeper

[cplstevennorton]

Adjustable sights were retrofitted to M1 carbines during the later parts of WWII, starting in about 44. But with the rebuild stamp, that would be post WWII. Carbines were not being rebuilt until post war, starting sometime in 1947 if I remember right. And I believe the first rebuild station was springfield armory. And most other armories following suit in the early 50's for korea. So that means the stock at least was in the US inventory until at least Post WWII time. Which is evidenced by the cartouche.

There were repairs done in theater, but they did not stamp any cartouches in the stock. Any rebuild cartouches were done in an armory in the US after 1947.

It might be a korean war bring back, but for sure the stock didn't leave until post WWII. But that doesn't mean it still isn't a nice rifle, just not a WWII bringback.

Also a good picture of the side of the pin in the front sight would help. It's hard to tell in the pics, but it looks like it has a type I band. But if you can see any evidence of that pin being removed on the front sight, then it most likely had a type III band, that someone removed the bayonet lug. Is there a type III band shadow on the stock, or barrel? Pics of those areas will help as well. Are there any stake marks on the rear sight? All the carbines I have seen that had the rear sight changed in theater, do not have stake marks, or very light ones. If it has deep crater marks, or what I call them, those were usually put on during rebuild at an armory. More pictures of the end of the stock, and front sight will tell us more what it is.

You are right in the fact, that most early parts were upgraded during rebuild. But I've seen highwood stocks with Red River Arsenal rebuild marks, which was an arsenal rebuild station during the early parts of Vietnam. So anything could happen on the way that goes. I saw dogleg hammers in CMP carbines. So it's anyone's guess.

But it is still a nice carbine, it is a post WWII rebuild, that is for certain. But to me that just means it has more history of serving our country. And that doesn't mean you should be any less proud of it. There aren't a lot of M1a1's floating around anymore. And many members on this site would love to have that.

[bkavanaugh]

There were repairs done in theater, but they did not stamp any cartouches in the stock. Any rebuild cartouches were done in an armory in the US after 1947.

If an M1A1 stock had to be replaced in the field, where did the stock come from? Were there surplus "OI" Overton-Inland stocks available to armorers, or were "unmarked" replacement stocks on hand during World War II? I realize there were only about 140,000 M1A1s produced, but certainly many stocks were damaged and had to be replaced in the field. Where did these replacement stocks come from and were any of them stamped/marked?

[Bruce McAskill]

Adjustable rear sights were not available on a large scale if at all for rebuilding in 1944 as the production of the adjustable rear sights were unable to keep up with demand just for new carbines. Right into the end of production Inland only had 1/3 of there production fitted with the adjustable rear sights and not all of Winchesters production had the adjustable rear sights.