Which is a more accuraate rifle? The No1 MK 3 or the No 4 MK1

[enfield303t]

smellie, thanks for your post very interesting and I will relate a little of my experience.

My dad bought a new 1961 Dodge Phoenix from Teldun Motors in Moose Jaw the Dodge dealer. The sales manager was Cecil Huntley and somehow the mention of target shooting was discussed. My dad told me and I couldn't start shooting DCRA fast enough.

I used a No 4 with a Parker Hale 5C sight that I purchased (sight) from SIR in Winnipeg for the sum of $25.00 which was alot of money for me being a student and only working part time on weekends.

Cec was my coach and a Bisley shooter who took the time and effort to give me a good grounding and I must say I really enjoyed it and did quite well considering I was 16 years old. The bonus of being so young was where I went to compete the cooks at the Military Bases went out of their way to give me the best of everything, steak or whatever.


Cec served in WWII and I think with the RCAF, I do know while on duty one night he had the opportunity to take prisoner the crew of a German Bomber that being very low on fuel landed at a UK airfield when a flight of bombers were returning from a mission over Germany. He was armed with a .38 revolver and told me the crew was sitting on the wing of the bomber, they had enough and were happy to have landed safely and be taken prisoner.

We were fortunate to have Bob Pitcairn shooting with us. Bob was a flying instructor at the RCAF Base in Moose Jaw so he was always able to set-up as training flight in a Beech 18 when it was a competition weekend away from Moose Jaw. Bob was a great pilot and shooter and would let me take the right seat and fly the Expeditor as we called it in Canada. Bob later left the airforce and joined CP Airlines and was IIRC the first pilot to be Hijacked and landed in Saskatoon SK. Apparently the hijacker wanted to go to Cuba but Bob convinced him he had to land in Saskatoon for fuel. After they landed the hijacker allowed Bob to take his knife (IIRC) and walk him off the plane. Bob was really a Mr Personality and I remember Gord Rathwell writing to him asking if he crapped his pants during this incident. Bob of course mailed the underwear he had on that day to Gord tell him NO and "here's proof".

I have the most amazing memories of my DCRA shooting stint, great people, unlimited ammunition and lots of FN C1 shooting at the long gone military range just east of Moose Jaw.

Heck the SK Dragoons stored their tanks at that range and I remember Cec showing me how to fire one up when we were having a practice one evening.

[smellie]

@enfield303t: Lordy, what memories your post brings back!

Bill Brown and Bob Pitcairn were friends for many years. Bob came out here to Virden and shot on our range several times. They shot together and they shot against each other, year after year, right to the top in Canada.... and then they went zipping off to represent the country at Bisley. I do know that Bill talked about Bob Pitcairn many times and looked forward to his visits, but I never had the privilege of meeting with Mr. Pitcairn myself.

As in my own case, you have touched a bit of History and been a part of it.

In my own case, one of the greatest influences in my life has been Dr. Charles Wayland Lightbody (1907 - 1970) who was the Head of the History Department at Brandon University. He was a Rhodes scholar in 1928, a profound Mediaevalist and a polymath of the most brilliant type. I remember a student once asking if the General Theory of Relativity actually meant anything, and Doc replied, "My friend Dr. Einstein explained it to me as....." and kept going from there. In a HISTORY class! Doc worked himself to death at age 63.

He once said, "History is the sum total of human experience, to date." That statement put into a handful of words what I had always thought. It has been my guide through the last 40 years.

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In the case of the Rifles Numbers 1 and 4, there are a lot of factors to take into consideration. For one thing, the old Long Lee rifles were popular in long-range target shooting in the 1890s and so, when the Army adopted the Short rifle with the light barrel in 1901, it met with instant dismay and disdain.

The stocking-up was completely wrong. Everyone knew that.

That light barrel would NEVER shoot. Everyone knew that.

But they were stuck with the thing, and huge efforts were made to improve it over the following decade..... in relative peacetime. In 1910 the Mark VII round was adopted and this afforded improved range. By the time the Great War interrupted the quiet afternoons of target-shooting, the SMLE had become a fixture (even if not really liked)... and it had become accurate and reliable, it had become tolerated and even was gaining fans. During the Great War, all the factories had to do was increase production of this KNOWN rifle and place it in the hands of the newly-raised New Armies. And the Trade had learned how to tune that complicated bedding and how to REGULATE the thing to get the best long-range performance from it. And then, in the trenches and the truly God-awful conditions of the Great War, it PROVED that, even though it MIGHT not be the finest MATCH rifle in the world, it certainly was the TOUGHEST.

The poor Number 4 never really had that chance. Designed as a great improvement on the SMLE, the Number 4 was developed entirely at Enfield through the 1920s and 1930s.The first rifles marked as Number 4s were built for Trials in 1931. The rifle then was adopted and work began, very slowly, to retool the single factory that knew anything about it at all. This work still was not completed by the outbreak of the War in 1939. The spectacular German advances of 1939 and 1940 left Britain standing alone and, thanks to Government parsimony, with only a single partly-equipped plant to manufacture an amazing variety of new weapons. The Trade, having been kept well outside the Number 4 program, could be of no help, most of the Trade never having even seen a Number 4, much less a Bren, an Enfield revolver, an Oerlikon or a Hispano cannon or anything else. And it ALL was to be made at Enfield, with its toolroom and its single Long Room with the tooling only half converted-over.

Finally, things got into some kind of order and 5 factories on two continents began vomiting forth huge quantities of Number 4 Rifles of varying fit, finish and quality of workmanship and even types of materials. Of these factories, only ONE even was staffed by people accustomed to building firearms; the other four were staffed with whoever showed up and wanted a job. BSA and Enfield were able to provide some knowledgeable management for the 3 British factories, but only a minority of these were familiar with the Number 4 to any real degree. And so the rifles were churned out, fought a war, were called in at the end of that war and found obsolete. All efforts immediately went into finding a replacement for the Number 4 and the completed rifles began being dumped onto the worldwide surplus market, beginning with the really terrible ones which only could be classed as "war-wearies".

NOT the most auspicious beginning in civilian life for the rifle which was designed to be the Perfection of the Lee System.

Actually, considering the general conditions in wartime and the absolute cluster-f*ck which characterised early Number 4 production, it is a small miracle that the rifles worked at all, not even to think of working as the absolutely splendid instruments which so many have turned out to be.

The old SMLE set a lot of records but, to be a little bit honest, it was in many ways a specialist's rifle on the rifle-range, albeit one which certain members of the Trade understood. It now is long enough in the past that the Number 4 is becoming as well understood as was its dam. Number 4 parts are much easier to find and threads are BA, so it stands to reason that the Number 4 will continue on the rifle ranges after the final SMLE has been hung on a wall, "too valuable to shoot".

It is entirely possible that this debate will not be concluded until past OUR time..... and that the Number 4 will come out on top.

But there will NEVER be anything else as butt-ugly BRUTAL in appearance, as the old SMLE with its Pattern 1907 sticking out 17-1/2 inches in front: the ULTIMATE crowd-control device, the ne plus ultra of Milsurps.

Hope these thoughts help.
.

[enfield303t]

smellie, thanks for your post as it is very interesting. I did most of my shooting and practice with Cec Huntley, Bob Pitcairn, Ed Begin and Chels Heron. What a great bunch of guys and I have nothing but fond memories of all of them.

I just googled Ed Begin and found a 1991 interview he did on Youtube. Ed was very involved with hunting and conversation in SK.

Bob Pitcairn was one in a million, as I mentioned Mr Personality and not only a great flying instructor but marksman as well. I remember when we were flying to a shoot in Winnipeg in the Expeditor he was letting me fly left seat as he was giving a lesson...LOL..to another pilot and I guess I flew it like it was on a roller coaster. The guys gave me a bad time when I went in the back on how I was a lousy pilot.

On the return trip during take off at I guess less than 500 ft, Bob killed a engine to see if his "student" had the ability to save us. I know my heart did skip as couple of beats as no one knew that was planned and although the plane did "sink" a bit we made it back to MJ. Once the "student" had control and climbing he restarted the other engine.

We all belonged to the SK Dragoons so we qualified for Military Flights etc and to me the real bonus was being able to shoot as often as I wanted and know I would never run out of .303 ammunition. Those were the days. We had to attend one parade a year to keep in good standing and that is all we attended.

In the winter we shot .22 at the indoor range at the RCAF base just south of MJ. I earned all my badges including Distinguished Marksman as we shot at least once a week. I doubt that range is open today due to the lead scare and strange but it hasn't had a negative effect on me..LOL.

[JerryB08]

It's marked 1943 right below the III* HV stamp on the right hand side just above the sling swivel well a little to the right of it. it also has an MA and under the wrist t has an R and a SLAZ and a 49 below it I think. I have put together alot of rifles and theres no question it is an engineering marvel.


Anyone have any Idea what a good to fine condition MUES No 1 improved is worth while were at it.

[Homer]

Ok then it is most likely a replacement butt. It is thought among collectors in Australia that the 1000 rifles with 53 dated actions assembled in 1953-55 were stocked with new wood and the butts were unmarked.

[JerryB08]

I figured it was the original because it is Coachwood as was the hacked up Forestock which had the brass plates in it. I guess they simply had some from returned rifles. It's my favorite now. Beating out a tribe of KAR98K's even an S42/G (First full year) Any idea what the R and the SLAZ mean?

[Maxwell Smart]

SLAZ is the code for Slazengers - they made the woodwork for the SMLE in Australia

[paulseamus]

Slazenger was a sports good manufacturer before and after the war. We grew up as kids learning to play tennis with Slazenger tennis racquets, back when they were finely crafted from timber.

During the war the Sydney Slazenger factory changed from making cricket bats and tennis rackets to making wood work for Lithgow.

All part of the feeder factory system set up to increase the production of firearms.

Slazenger still trade today. Cricket store | Cricket bats | Cricket gear - Slazenger sports

[newcastle]

Awesome info Smellie.
thank you

[Homer]

It's marked 1943 right below the III* HV stamp on the right hand side just above the sling swivel well a little to the right of it. it also has an MA and under the wrist t has an R and a SLAZ and a 49 below it I think. I have put together alot of rifles and theres no question it is an engineering marvel.


Anyone have any Idea what a good to fine condition MUES No 1 improved is worth while were at it.

It would be SLAZ over 43. This is the manufacture date so couldn't be a 49. Not sure of the R.