Mosin Nagant Identification

[hj0922]

I know, ya'll get these all the time, so here's one more for you. I'm trying to settle an argument between my son and I (he's 14 and knows his stuff on guns), and to identify this rifle for it's owner. I'm saying it's a 1943 M91/59 manufactured at Tula. My son says it's a 1943 M38 Carbine, manufactured at Tula. Pics aren't the greatest, but hopefully they can help some.
Also, the owner basically paid $100 for the gun. He has that much work into a lawnmower, and the customer didn't have the cash to pay him, so he traded out the rifle instead. So with that said, my buddy is wondering what it's worth, approximately.

Thanks
-HJ

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Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Mike in Wis.]

It's a M1891\30 rifle modified to a carbine... apparently modified in Bulgaria.

"Model 1891/59 Carbine: M1891/59s were created by shortening M1891/30 rifles to carbine length, with rear sight numbers partially ground off to reflect reduced range. These rifles are almost clones of the M38 except for the ground off M91/30 rear sight. The "1891/59" marking on the receiver suggests the carbines were created in or after 1959. Recent evidence suggests that the M91/59 was indeed produced in Bulgaria from Soviet supplied M91/30s."

[hj0922]

It's a M1891\30 rifle modified to a carbine... apparently modified in Bulgaria.

"Model 1891/59 Carbine: M1891/59s were created by shortening M1891/30 rifles to carbine length, with rear sight numbers partially ground off to reflect reduced range. These rifles are almost clones of the M38 except for the ground off M91/30 rear sight. The "1891/59" marking on the receiver suggests the carbines were created in or after 1959. Recent evidence suggests that the M91/59 was indeed produced in Bulgaria from Soviet supplied M91/30s."

Thanks for the info Mike, but either I'm confused or you made a typo - you said it's a 91/30 modified to a carbine, and then you quoted info about a 91/59 carbine, which was created by shortening a 91/30. I, well, my son has a 91/30 Tula, and this looked very similar to it. I guess where I'm confused is that is the 91/59 really a short 91/30, or is it a different gun. Also, I read the article you quoted from, and it states that it suggests the carbines were created in or after 1959, which doesn't make sense with the 1943 stampings on this one.

Sorry if I'm having a blonde moment here.

-HJ

[Mike in Wis.]

It started out life as a M1891 rifle originally made at Tula in 1943. In ~1959 the rifle was modified (cut down) to a carbine configuration in Bulgaria and the /59 was added to the model number to indicate that. That help...?

[hj0922]

Yep, makes perfect sense now. I've been reading up on that a bit and had just come to the same conclusion about the time I got the email notification that you had replied.

Now here's the other question - as is life on the WWW, everyone has a different opinion on the rarity, value, etc. on this. So, given that it was taken as trade for a $100 service bill, I don't think my buddy got hurt on the deal. But are these fairly common, like the 91/30's, or are they harder to find?

-HJ

[Mike in Wis.]

Well... value is dependent on the owner. To me anything that safely shoots is worth at least $100 . IMO Nagant values in general are rising, especially if not import marked. I'm not an expert nor a Nagant specific collector so I'll defer to someone more qualified as to current value or rarity. But I think, depending on condition, $100 likely is in the ballpark.

[hj0922]

Thanks again for the info Mike. Try to stay warm up there in Wisconsin.

[vintage hunter]

It actually started life as a 91/30, not an 1891. Has a round reciever. At some time it was converted into a 91/59 carbine but theres no conclusive evidence to suggest the conversion was done in Bulgaria, it was most likely done in Russia. There may or may not be Bulgarian markings on the stock, one looks something like a pine cone and the other a double circle 10. These are property marks not refurb marks. Reasons to doubt Bulgarian manufacture are
1. none were imported from Bulgaria
2.General lack of Bulgarian makers marks
3.first hand accounts of issue to Russian reserve troop and police units
4.Vietnam bringbacks point more to Russian mfg
5.markings and uniformity point to Russian mfg
6. theres at least one know example of a Finnish Tikka 91/30 being converted

[Mike in Wis.]

It actually started life as a 91/30, not an 1891.

Yep.... my mistype. You have good points re: Bulgarian modification or Russian. I suspect you are correct.