Smle mk v

[Frederick303]

muffet.2008

Regarding the Model 5/5a sight

Rather then rely on memory to answer I went back and checked my reference notes. I think you are wrong on this. Of course you may well be right, but I doubt what you wrote is correct for the following reasons:

1) The copy I have of the 1924 A.G. Parker catalog (the firm that will become Parker Hale) that does not show the fixed arm Model 5 sight. It has the 9F sight as the most modern sight in the catalog.

2) The first ad I have seen for the No 5 sight (not 5A) is from 1926 and it refers to the sight having been introduced the year before. Now this ad was (I think) in the 1926 NRA results booklet which is actually published in early 1927. So as far as the date goes it is possible that the Model 5 sight was introduced as late as the very beginning of 1926, most certainly it was not introduced before 1925. I cannot be more detailed about this as I do not have a copy of that booklet, only reference notes from 2006.

3) My copy of the 1928 A.G. Parker catalog has the Model 6 and Model 5 sights in it, but no mention at all of the Model 5A or 6A. Further it has the 9G sight advertised, with a patent data of 1925. That would tend to indicate the model 5 sight, which was the replacement for the No 9 sight, was introduced after the last No 9 sight, or no earlier than 1925.

4) A copy I have seen of the April 1928 A.G. Parker catalog, updated in January of 1929 has no listing for the Model 5A sight. It does have the Model 5 and Model 6

5) The major change in the model 5 A sight was the addition of the movable sight index scales. This change to the sight did not occur until after the A.J. Parker Twin Zero sight #1 was introduced, which is the first sight to have the dual adjustable scales. The date of the T.Z. # 1 introduction was in 1928. In fact that he addition of the movable sight index plates was made to keep the model 5 sight competitive with the Twin Zero model. The Model 5 plus, which allowed the sight to be folded was a similar effort to compete with the foldable T.Z. #1.

6) The 1928 NRA results booklet, published in the spring of 1929 has an ad from A.G Parker for what products it will have at its Bisley pavilion in 1929. The 5 A is listed a as a new improved sight. This is the first reference I can find to the Model 5 A sight. In the 1930 A.G. P through the 1950s Parker Hale catalog the Model 5 A appears in every catalog, the model 5 sight having disappeared.


So if you still maintain that the Model 5 was introduced in 1923/24 and the 5A in 1925, please present the data to show that. If you are going to reference Edna’s 1984 book a “Century of Sights” please be aware this is a mistake in her book. If you doubt she was in error, go and check the section where she references the introduction of the T.Z. # 1sight, indicating it was the first sight to feature the movable sight index and that it was introduced in 1928. In essence she just omitted reference to the intermediary model 5.


Regards

Frederick303

[Peter Laidler]

I think that Garrys is the upgraded Mk3 because you can (?) see the fine line where the new backsight bracket has been brazed to the body. The proof of the pudding is to look at the barel and the old holes for the backsight bed are still visible. I could be wrong of course as I haven't made a great study of these things

[gsimmons]

I'll take the handguards off and try to post piccies.

[gsimmons]

Attachment 33030Attachment 33031
It's the second type. No holes from a Back sight.

[Bruce_in_Oz]

In other interesting news, post WW1, plans were afoot to do something Mk5 related at Lithgow.

There is a drawing of the different receiver forging required to make a Mk5 in the Lithgow archives. I am looking for the number now.

Drawing number C-1118 is the drawing for the different charger guide required. Drawing dated September 1923.

This was probably the starting point for the later No6 series and is the reason that the "ladder" rear sight is a bit different from the British No5 model.

[muffett.2008]

Attachment 33036

So if you still maintain that the Model 5 was introduced in 1923/24 and the 5A in 1925, please present the data to show that.

(Bugger)

This page from a 1929 A.G Parker catalogue shows an early 5A based on the earlier AGP5 sight, note the information on the left of the picture. (did I see 1925 written there?)

Attachment 33037 This page is from a later PH Catalogue showing the upgraded PH5A sight, note the dates of prize wins.

Attachment 33038 Just a representation of the 5 family 5,5a,5b,5c,5d,5eAttachment 33039 and a No.5Attachment 33040 early 5A

The best place to find information on anything British is http://www.rifleman.org.uk
So one must assume that if the 5A was introduced in 1925 as the first pic. shows, then the No.5 must have been in the years prior,not produced in a great quantity, as they are regarded as scarce amongst the sight collector fraternity, to wit 1923-24.

[Frederick303]

Muffet.2008

Thank you for your post. I see why you have the impression you have. However may I gently suggest you have ignored the primary sources I have presented? Not trying to start a p-ssing contest, I also collect sights and very much enjoy comparing notes with fellow Enfield target rifle fans. Here is your argument and supporting evidence as I understand it.

1) You refer to a post-January 1929 catalog which refers to the 5a sight and mentions the introduction date of 1925.
2) A later post WWII catalog refers back to Bisley wins with the 5A sight and includes dates back to 1925.
3) Since you assume that the 5a sight was first made in 1925, then it is logical that the model 5 must have been produced prior, say 1923 to 1924.
4) A bunch of pictures that show you are a serious collector of sights, hence you know what you are talking about.

No disagreement on any of these factual postings, just your interpretation of the evidence. What if the post-1928 catalog references above refer to the model 5 inclusively, both the model 5 and the 5a? Think about it. None of what you have presented really disagrees with my assertion regarding the introduction dates. You have posted a copy of the 1929 catalog, which matches my assertion that the 5A was first available in 1929 and a development of the earlier Model 5 sight. The fact that Parker Hale includes the 5 sight in with the 5A wins in their 1930 and later catalog is why you are mistaking this as a sign that the 5a existed in 1925. All the documentation I have referenced shows it did not. To be specific about what the written primary sources indicate:

1) The 5a sight is not shown in the 1926, 1928 or January 1929 updated 1928 A.G. Parker catalogs. In each the Model 5 only is shown.
2) The first reference I have found is in the NRA 1928 handbook, published after December 31 1928 and before June of 1929. In that handbook reference is made to A.G. Parker having the “new” improved, 5A sights for sale at the Bisley pavilion.
3) The reason for the change was the introduction of the T.Z #1 sight, which by Edna Parkers own hand is recorded as being introduced in 1928. This was the first British sight that featured movable zero scales. The 5A was a development by Parker Hale to keep up with the T.Z development. The 1929 introduction date of the Model 5a matches this assertion by Edna Parker.
4) There is no evidence of the Model 5 sight existing prior to 1925, unless you can show me an ad from prior to 1925. I have not seen one to date; further the model 5 sigh does not show up in the 1924 A.G. Parker Catalog.

Now in response I say, if you still disagree with my interpretation: How do you explain the very clearly dated written sources that I have referenced? If you simply change your assumption regarding the A.G. Parker/Parker-Hale reference of the victories with the model 5A as being inclusive of the earlier model 5, you will see then no conflict exists.

I know this is not a standard interpretation, but the evidence I have seen indicates it is the correct one.

Regards

Frederick303

[Longshaor]

Add another survivor to the list, #5639, made in 1922. Bought it about 20 years ago from Sarco in Sterling, NJ - where it was up on a shelf in amongst a mess of Mk IIIs & Mk III*s! It has a slight ding in the left vertical of the backsight but otherwise is in fine shape and shoots well.

[gsimmons]

That must have been one of the weaknesses. My sight is dinged on the same place.

[bigduke6]

That must have been one of the weaknesses. My sight is dinged on the same place.

I would say this was common fault as the sight ladder isnt very squaddie proof, and far too flimsy in my mind, OK for a Sunday shoot, but dont think it would of survived the on set of War.

Think the reason for a lot of sights missing from the rifles was due to the sight being destroyd while trying to remove the securing pins on the locating pins to straighten the ladder, as its got a a slot on these for a blade screwdriver and I would guess people mistake this as a means to remove it rather than to help everything line up , I managed to straighten mine in situ, bit heath robbo but it worked.
I,ve never had much luck at knocking pins out, and would say I,ve caused more damage to myself or the equipment in the last twenty years and the smaller the pin the more I cringe, Lot to be said about watchmakers.

The pins in question, just visable.