What is this Paratroop Steel Helmet and Liner worth?

[ulflyer]

Jim, thanks for all your help. I bought a used headband with the black clips off Ebay and the chin straps for the helmet that you previously found for me. After cleaning the helmet yesterday with some light oil and wiping it down I find a Large "S" stamped in the metal on the inside just behind the brim and a little further in theres "2 8A". No other marks that I could see. The bails/bales are the swivel type.

Inside the liner, what I thought was a "W" is actually " M II " with a larger numeral "3" above it. With the 64 P or F stamped in ink on the lining I'm assuming its a VN era.

I'll take some more pics sometime today and try to post them. My prob with posting is that when I download the pics to my computer, my pic files are so mixed up, when I try to find them to attach sometime I can never find them! One of these days I have to organize the pictures! Its on my roundtuit list.

[browningautorifle]

Try to download you pics to your desktop. It should show you a little screen and before you click OK just select desktop so you pics are available. Then you can re-number them and put them where you want. When they come off your camera they should be in a window that you can pick them out of and leave them on you desktop. Then you close the little screen.

[ulflyer]

Jim, I have some new pics on Picassa and can find them to email but cannot find them when I use the "manage attachments" thing on the forum. If you email me your email I can send them to you. I think I sent you my email addee earlier.

regards, ted

[browningautorifle]

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I'm posting some further pics for ulflyer and I wonder if some of you can give him some more info. I'm not very good with this area.

[Harlan (Deceased)]

Hi Guys,

Jim sent me an email to let me know about this thread about Ted's M1C -
I've been on ‘furlough’ for the past couple of months or so due to spine surgery and vision problems, and I haven't been on the forums much at all. I’m improving a little at a time – (Things don’t seem to heal as quickly being in my fifties now!)

Jim is correct that the helmet shell (Body) is WWII vintage, but it has been updated for use in Vietnam and/or Korea. Unfortunately, it's a just like a gun that's been upgraded with different, post war parts, so it's value is how much someone might pay for it. Probably around $40-$70 from what I’ve seen. The biggest thing hurting the collector value is the chin straps were originally sown on, and once they're cut off there's no way to go back again.

The large 'S' under the brim of the shell is the maker stamp for a company called Schlueter. I don't know of a reliable Heat Code chart for them, if one exists, but they made their helmets with the front seam from 1942-1944, and then 'sometime' moved the seam to the rear 1944-1945. There are no records known to exist for both WWII helmet manufacturers to move the seam to the rear near the end of WWII, but most people agree it was done for durability of the seam coming into contact with the front of the rim protector. Even though there aren't any clear records when/why they changed the seam from front to rear, but a front seam like yours Ted is definitely WWII vintage. Also, Schlueter only made helmets during WWII and didn't win a contract for post WWII production.

McCord Radiator Company produced the bulk of WWII helmets at about 90%, and Schlueter made approximately 10% of all helmet bodies in WWII. McCord made 20 million and Schlueter made approximately 2 million by VE-Day. The shape of the dome is slightly different for Schlueter manufactured helmets, even though they had the same specs. It’s subtle, but when you place a McCord next to a Schlueter you can see that the Schlueter is just slightly less rounded, or flatter on top. The front brim is also shaped slightly different.

The middle helmet below below is an early WWII McCord with fixed bales. I wanted a late WWII helmet to go next to it for my 'Time-line' and found one I think is perfect. It is a rear seem Schlueter with OD Green chinstraps. They had just begun to change WWII vintage helmet straps to OD green when the war and helmet production ended.
(The collector value of the middle 'fixed bale' is approx three times the swivel bale Schlueter set)


Schlueter manufactured helmets are harder to come by than McCords, but they don’t seem to bring much more money even with their original sown on straps. (Some collectors don't even want them) Your liner is most likely from the mid to later 60's as Jim said, and the poor fit at the loops is exaggerated because of the shape of the Schlueter dome doesn't allow it to go into the shell far enough. I've seen several Vietnam era helmet sets made up from Schlueter helmets like this that don't seat well, and they interfere with the loops. (Often they crack the liner too).

Originally, the chinstraps were sown onto the movable loops (Swivel Bails in collector slang) - Swivel bales were introduced around 1943 because there were so many of the non-swivel hoops that broke off. Many times the early loops were broken while using the helmet for a seat, etc.

The straps have been replaced somewhere/sometime after WWII as an upgrade to the older sown-on straps. (The older design straps often wore out and broke off) The new design straps are called 'T-1' straps. They used the same design of strap from the Korean War until a different design came out in the 1970's M-1 helmets.

All helmet production ceased at the end of WWII, and after it was justified, helmet production commenced again in the early 50’s due to the Korean War. McCord was the only company who made helmet bodies at this time and all helmets had swivel bales, T-1 straps, and the seam at the rear. WWII helmets were finished on the outside using a mix of paint and cork to reduce glare or reflection, but the new produced helmets were finished using a spray of silica (sand) mixed with the paint. Your helmet still has the original cork finish. It appears that it went through a post-war refurbishment, adding the new style straps and possibly the darker OD green that was used in Korea at that time.

The straps used for new production and replacements had the hardware painted in an olive drab color in the fifties, and then in the early to mid sixties the color of the strap hardware changed to a more polished black. Also, the majority of Vietnam era straps will have an 'Anchor' stamped into the hardware.
(It's not for "NAVY" as all eBay sellers tell everyone) - It's just a manufacture logo referring to the buckle having a strong anchor. Most of the buckles of this period should have the little round ball that was supposed to break away under a strong concussion.

Here is one of my Korean War vintage helmets for an example of the chin strap hardware color -


I can’t tell from the photos, but is there an extra short end of strap with a snap-type fastener to adjoin the shell to the liner? If there is, I’d expect the body and shell were probably put together by a rigger for actual use. (Not as likely to have been put together more recently)


Strap with snap attached to inside of liner near top of photo.


I’m having some confusion with the liner. Is there any chance that you can take a photo of the markings inside the dome? I have a liner that has ‘MII’ in the dome that was the maker mark for Marmac Industries Incorporated. Marmac only received one contract in 1962-1963, and all of theirs I’ve ever seen are the older style with the round loop for adjustment in the dome of the liner. (They're hard to come by)

Here's an example of the earlier (Pre- 1964) liner. It's the same basic design as used from the beginning of WWII but the color is green instead of khaki (OD#3)


This is the new design that began in 1964 and stayed like this until 1969
They did away with leather liner chinstraps for this type and installed a new 'nape strap' system to help keep the helmet and liner together. Many GI's removed the nape from the helmet.


The style of your liner without the round tie inside the dome, and having solid bands across the top was produced between 1964 and 1969. I’ve never seen it before, but there’s a remote possibility the liner was an earlier Vietnam era MII (Marmac) that was rigger modified using an early design and rebuilt to the later 1964-1969 design. The key would be to try to get a good photo of the marking inside the dome. I use a ‘Mini-Mag’ light for illumination and put my camera very close to the marking with my camera on ‘Macro’ setting. The marks are often almost impossible for me to see because of my eyes and how small they are, but with the Macro setting it’s clearly visible in the viewfinder on the rear of my camera. (This is smaller than a pencil eraser head)



I also agree with Jim (BAR) it most likely ended its service in later Vietnam. It would have had a Mitchell (Some call ‘Leaf’) camouflage cover. The net wouldn’t have been commonly used for Vietnam, but Mitchell covers were, and they are pretty easy to come by.

This is a cover I found recently that's in mint condition. They get expensive for the early covers like this one, but you can usually find worn covers in the $20 range.


The helmet may not have a lot of value to a helmet collector because it’s been put together from so many different eras, but I like it! A helmet like this one looks as if it would have actually seen service. (I really do wish your helmet could talk!)

Sometimes 'Mint' doesn't always mean more valuable in the bigger picture to me. Jim's faded (Actually used) helmet has provenance more than anything in my collection. It isn't always about the money. Thanks again to both Jim's!!!! (It means more than you know)

Below far right is Jim's older faded helmet and I wouldn't take anything for it.




Ted, I would just get a Vietnam era cover and you'll have a nice old soldier who's "Been There" (JMO)
If you're interested in a worn Mitchell cover like the one below with wear similar to your helmet, and you don't mind fading and a couple of small holes as they all seem to have when actually worn I have several. Just send me a PM if you'd like one.



Covers in the shape below have been reaching over $50 over the past six months or so on completed eBay auctions, and I've seen them approach $100 for early dated covers like this one has. This one came on the M1C when I bought it a while back, and I only paid slightly more for the whole set!


I hope you can get a good photo of the maker marking in the liner. It sounds as if you saw 'MII' in yours and I'd like to know for sure if a Marmac liner was made in the later style web suspension.

Hope this helps at least a little. I'll check back here to see if I can help with anything.
~ Harlan

[ulflyer]

Harlan, many thanks for the detailed informatiion. I'm still reading and rereading all of it trying to digest it all. I'll have a try tomorrow at taking some of the crown of the liner but don't have much hope of getting anything useful with my camera. Will PM you about the used cover. I'm definitely interested as the more used it is the bettr I like it. I may be repeating myself, but I collect, and sell some M1 carbines. I much prefer those that have a used look as opposed to those "prettified" up. Rarely does one in original OEM like condition become available and when it does it goes for way more than my wallet allows. A little off the subject of helmets, but I recently bought one Winchester that had been in Korea and made its way home via a US Arms importer. It has a big "Blue Sky" stamp of the importer which some guys steer away from. This one arrived in the mail from the owner in Maine and to my surprise it was a nearly all correct Winchester. Only the bolt, hammer, and handguard is not, but these three all show extreme finish wear commensurate with all other parts of the gun. I got it to resell, thinking it was nothing but a mixmaster shooter, but have fallen in love with it and it'll go in my small collection.

All this to say, its been used, parts changed as needed for update, which only add to its character; much like my helmet and liner.

More later if I can get the pics.

[Harlan (Deceased)]

Hi Ted!
I've read your posts for years and you've always been knowledgeable and helpful with info about carbines. (You come up with some nice ones too!) I'm happy that I can help if I can with any trivial helmet info. Most people don't realize there were so many different manufacturers, etc who were involved with the M1 'Steel Pot' from 1941 to 1985. In WWII Inland made liners for M1 and M1C helmets as well as carbines.

They began replacing M1 helmets with the first Kevlar helmets called the PASGT in 1985, but still used the steel pots for several more years in transition, and for training, etc.. Today there are a few different designs of Kevlar helmets, and if you shop around you can find them for fairly cheap. I searched around and found three that have the 3rd Inf patches. The two on the left are the older PASGT type, and the helmet on the right is a newer design called the Advanced Combat Helmet, or 'ACH'. They raised the sides slightly and shortened the brim for better viability.



When you get a chance send me a PM with a mailing address and I'll get a Mitchell cover out to you.

~ Harlan

[ulflyer]

Harlan, Pm on the way. Looks like you have a real nice collection. I still have a question or two about mine and will put them togather shortly. I see a strap around the helmet covers; is it elastic or what? Where might I find one?

ted

[browningautorifle]

I see a strap around the helmet covers; is it elastic or what?

If Harlan doesn't have one I DO have one here to send you.

[ulflyer]

Jim, many thanks but Harlan has what i need.