Eddystone P14 - Centenary CMP Competitor?

[ArtioZen]

My latest acquisition is a late production Eddystone P14. I wanted to try another of the British Battle Rifle ilk and caliber but purpose this one to pursue CMP competitions locally –I cannot bring myself to subject my other rifles to rapid fire.

So after a little research I settled on this very nicely priced all numbers matching, all Eddystone parts, no apparent Weedon marks, 95%ish original metal finish still with “cosmoline in the details” example and dings and dents in the “fat” model wood as if beaten all over with a bag of bolts. It retains its front volley sight disk. It also has a characterful patch to its right action housing. No late century export / import marks.

I procured the TZ sight complete with screw and diopter and united within a span of few days – a properly sized split pin replacing the rear volley sight button.
After a thorough inspection it was off to the range! I have a limited amount of 3 types to zero sights and dope:
Kynoch ’51 Mk7 produced 2.71 MOA and used as a sight zero for 100 yds holding BDC on a 3”radius bull’s-eye.
S&B 180G was 2.28 MOA I click left, 1 click depressed for its zero
Privi BT 2.75 MOA 0 windage, +5 clicks elevation.
All brass has been saved for this rifle as I prepare to enter the world of reloading I still have not found a rifle that "likes" the std Privi load (load specs / quality or Boat Tail?).

So far on this journey I have found that the TZ on a P14 is so low that only a midget diopter will clear the bolt – I had an iris and found as I dropped elevation for zero it rubbed the bolt before I could get it low enough to point at 100yds.

So questions to help me on my way:
Unfortunately it came with no history available and only a few stamps - It has a “Z” stamp on the butt after the rear sling swivel, Also a “G” and an “X” on the fore stock underside ahead of the magazine plate. Maybe these signify something historic and vague?

Will I be able to replace the pivot pin and arm on the front volley sight? (should I find them) = the threads are present and the boss unground.

I am learning about this marque and competition environment simultaneously (keeps me off the streets) and welcome any info and guidance - thanks for the excellent resource and in advance for advice. I hope to be competition shooting this example and giving the newer rifles a run for their money for its centenary and in the area it was manufactured.

Information

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[harry mac]

If that was my rifle I'd just pick one either the S&B or PPU load, tweak the sights and call it done. A good hand load might improve those groups a little, but it won't be by much.

[M94/14]

Your sight problem itself is an easy to fix. These rifles can use the same front sight inserts as the No.4 enfields. Find the tallest front sight insert you can and install. That should allow your rear sight some room to zero at 100 without hitting the bolt.
BTW, part of the problem, is that there isn't a 100yd setting on that sight, the lowest is 200.

[ArtioZen]

Thanks gents!

I have now put the first 50 or so rounds through the P14 and we are getting to know each other nicely - I hit one CMP clinic and did a lot of learning. Before we go to more, a few simple fixes and upgrades.

Depending on the organization and class of event (within NRA and CMP etc), I may not be able to use the PH5B and so will need to be able to work with the stock ladder sight. The PH TZ model installed has a quick release catch for the bridge which is excellent for removing / reinstalling to use the ladder sight or clean and go back on zero (pretty well).

I "sprang" for the original PH mounting hardware when it came up to replace the improvised dowel - is a thou tighter now. The PH 200 yd minimum range scale is not an issue - I will zero the PH at 100 yds and have always worked in minutes - the range scale is very "flat" and may reflect the 30-06 round in Model 17 use.

The stock ladder sight has been tested - need to drop the zero (it fulfills the "aim for the belt buckle stories of WW1 vets). I have reduced the peep diameter with the "trimmed 16 gauge wire insulation bushing trick" (see photo), also ground off the battle sight to allow the PH to zero and be unobstructed (the original sight is in the safe, a good condition substitute was acquired for surgery). I am working on increasing the height of the fore sight to help the stock sight zero - more on this later.

Originally I had a Model 17 ejector installed (found the hard way - thanks for the help in a separate thread) - now have the P14 item and it works great.

Last time out I had a long struggle with protective eyewear fogging due to high humidity. I do not use glasses otherwise and the humidity plays in the favor of the experienced eyewear users! This certainly added a distraction that had me losing the "psychological part of match shooting" - I let the rifle down (typified by adjusting the windage the wrong way in one leg). I was using the "divers" technique for clearing lenses (a little spit), which when asking around seems the best way to go. Will try different styles of glasses while practicing in position.

Am looking for a triangular sling swivel to add forward of the trigger guard, will use Britt sling techniques for a while. Will also check out the Model 17 follower depressor for single loading without triggering the empty mag bolt catch (has me breaking position to use both hands on the action). I have come across a quantity of HXP ammo and will commit these to the P14 for initial shooting and later developing reloads. Also verified that the muzzle is not counter-bored as many were and a Mk7 sits at @ 5/16ths from the case - will assess the throat for bullet jump when components are available.

The rifle is getting a lot of inquiries, interest and support at the range(s) - a show and tell finishing the social interaction between the AR and M users. Looking forward to the cooler weather and easier schedule to make events - more when I can.

[ArtioZen]

So a few upgrades since the last installment:

I changed the P14 issue +0.060” front sight blade for a No4 split +0.030” to adjust the ladder sight zero to 200 yards with a dead center POA (ladder set at 200) using Mk7 ammo. The foresight sizing system between the two rifle designs is set to a different height datum - A P14 +0.060 is the equivalent of a No4 0 (zero) so the No4 +0.030” is equivalent to a P14 +0.090” (which I do not think exist).

I sought out a Parker Hale triangular swivel and screw for the front of the magazine plate, which should be most useful for sitting and prone positions. I also have a L42 series sling, which may work better with my DPM Snipers Smock (my “starter” shooting jacket) for the sling hooks on the rear outer sleeve.

I also procured a magazine follower depressor which allows the bolt to be closed when empty and otherwise prevents the bolt locking back when single feeding for slow fire. It did not come with instructions but through a little noodling - To insert it: depress the magazine follower equally about an inch, place the depressor on its right side on the magazine follower and allow it to rotate flat (left edge down) to catch under the magazine lips as the magazine follower pushes it up. To remove: A simple “L” shaped tool (Allen key – I have one on a retractable key chain set inside my pocket) can be used to pop the left side up by inserting its bent end through the depressors “window” while pushing the depressor and magazine follower down about an inch – when the depressor is on its right side, the magazine follower pushes it out effectively.

I have been working my first hand loads up using HXP cases, S&B primers, and Varget – low loads first, shooting 5 round groups to test precision. The initial low loads all produce 2.3 MOA five round groups using Sierra 180 FBSP and 178 HPBT set to an OAL of 3.0” to feed out of the magazine. Trajectories are a little lower compared to Mk7 ammo over 100 yards, so I can gain a few MOA of sight elevation on the PH5B to achieve zero, then develop some hotter / longer range loads for later. I also established the distance from the face of the bolt to the tip of a bullet just engaged in the bore lands as 3.210”.

For a little fun and to complete a talking point, I wanted to restore the volley sight. I found a great deal on an auction site for a rear arm which may be NOS – it was deep in grease and marked with the Eddystone E (will not fit with the PH5B in place tho). I also received a front dial pointer “in the white” – also marked with an E – not sure if this is a repro – but it seems correct to the P14 - less bluing (and way too cheap to make it worth re-popping). I should have the front dial screw and washer from a UK dealer soon to complete the assembly. I just need to blue the pointer – any guidance?

I have also participated in some more local CMP clinics with my eldest son, he has enjoyed shooting club M1 carbines with my guidance, while I have enjoyed the practice and friendly environment– Not too far till the 2014 season…time to pick some meets to transition from practice and start scoring for its centenary.

[ArtioZen]

Last weekend I hit a local CMP clinic to go through the rules and conditions of a competition shoot – learn, practice and compare notes with like-minded peoples. The weather was conducive with a bright sunny day, zero wind and 38 degree air temps – there was 6” of ice and snow on the shooting line which made movement back and forth interesting! Again many layers of clothes topped with a DPM smock, ski hat, two pairs of gloves and yellow lensed glasses for sun / snow glare.

New stuff on trial this outing:

My first run of hand loads – in a roughly established sweet spot – HXP cases – weight graded to <0.4grain, Sierra 0.311” 180g FBSP, 39grains Varget.

Using an L42 nylon sling, no spotting scope, borrowed a shooting mat from the club, still with the PH5B for now – not allowed under CMP, but OK for NRA – will dope and work with the ladder sight next time.

Learnings:

The L42 sling is too slippy on the DPM for my tastes – I spent a lot of time adjusting and never really got the sling lock that I need – back to leather 1907 pattern next time!
About 100 factory HXP cases from the same lot show an empty & clean case weight variation of over 5 grains centered around a 185 grain midpoint - weight sorting was very impactful on group size.

Dope was off 4” left for the Slow Standing string – shot 54 and gave up 20 or so points, but a created a 10” pattern (useful and more practice required!). I had time to spare – having a using a scope would optimize this and the points scored!

Sights adjusted for Rapid Sitting I shot a 91/100 with a 5.2MOA group – greater than halved from factory HXP. I have found that clean rounds (factory HXP needs a really good clean), assembled with alternating over-under rims in clean chargers are producing fast reliable reloads. I had 9 shots off in the allocated timeframe – so close (the only disadvantage to a bolt in my opinion).

Rapid Prone was similar – really missed the sling contribution in this one! Shooting a 82/100 with a 5.4MOA group (reduced by almost half) – 1.5” depressed in this position – due to differences in sight picture – can adjust for this next time.

Slow Prone produced 173 / 200 with a 4.42” group (again reduced by half) – had time to spare even with taking rests (groups of 5).

So pretty close to all rules and regs, scored 400/500 overall for 80% - not too shabby! I am very pleased with the results of this shoot despite the conditions and am happy with the rifle load and my form. The P14 gathers consistent interest from fellow competitors and inspires the local historians to tell stories – I also enjoy the novelty of a bolt action in a seemly semi-auto world and field questions from juniors on how I got all the rapid shots off! There were 3 Garand’s and an AR on the line (in the hands of seniors / competition preppers) along with lots of friendly help and coaching.

I slugged the barrel (my first time - will "rinse and repeat") and got a reading of 0.3121” – will look into 0.312” projectiles, also a collet bullet seating die – my RCBS has tell-tale tiny copper shards around the shell holder. I will also investigate case neck prep. - Any guidance greatly appreciated!

Now to find time for the next practice and competition dates with opportunities to reach out to 200 and 300 yards.

[Brian Dick]

The later 1.5" cotton web L8A1 sling is so much better than the wide nylon one. That's why they changed them. The nylon is way too slippery. There's nothing wrong with the leather 1907 sling either.

[ArtioZen]

I had time to return to a clinic with more tweaks and better weather - 50 degrees, sunny with scattered clouds, winds gusting 15-30mph generally heading into 12 o'clock. 1907 sling on upper and butt swivels, borrowed a mat and a scope (will be getting my own when poss.)

In the standing position I shot a personal best of 78, with 6 in the black and only one miss - still room to tighten this (practice, practice, practice!). Other positions gained a few points - with mostly all in the black and well centered. Need to practice reloads with various stripper clips and dedicate the best for rapid legs (needs to be looser and snag free). Got all shots off during rapid sitting, with one left for rapid prone - reloading being the key.

Overall score was 428 / 500 a personal best with the P14 and drawing lots of kudos, attention from other competition and day shooters. To manage fatigue I sip sugary drinks between legs and close my eyes to let them rest and preserve vision - My groups were staying steady through the ongoing legs as others were increasing due to fatigue.

I invested in a case trimmer and set all case lengths equal, squared mouths and added a neck thickness trimmer - observing that the HXP lot I have has a large amount of variation in all these parameters. When done the previously weight sorted case lot had generally shifted down 1 grain in total weight and increased the grouping around the average weight - making for even tighter weight matched cases dedicated to each leg / position. I also switched to a collet bullet seating die with micrometer stem for the Sierra 180grain FBSP. These upgrades gave a further group reduction of around 1MoA to give around 4MoA for groups of 10 /20.

The manufacturer’s website for the trimmer sells spare shaft assemblies for $14 - so I now have one for each tool and can change them in seconds and preserve standard trim settings.

Load research has led to tests with various projectiles - Sierra 174 grain match kings, Barnes 150grain, Woodleigh 0.312" 174grain with small variations noted over 39 grains Varget. Interestingly the current lowest size test groups (just over 2 MoA with 5 rounds) are observed with Hornady 0.308" 150grain BTSP. Quite a different result from my 1945 No4Mk1 T - which test these lots simultaneously and predictably prefers the Sierra 180grain FBSP over everything else.

Time to clean, resize - check dimensions and weights and try again!

[ArtioZen]

After a short break to finish start of summer projects I got back to the local CMP circuit with the P14. I did use small pockets of spare time to refine an ammo recipe – having found the better results from 308” sized projectiles I ran a series of tests on locally available bulk bullets and found that Sierra’s 308” 150g SPFB did the trick over 40g Varget initiated by an S&B primer. This had a reduction of 25% in mean group radius over previous combos and a similar result was anticipated in competition. For slow fire single feed I had the OAL length set to 3.075 and for rapid fire (charger fed) 3.0”. This load had a simple dope – lowered the rear sight 2MOA over previous loads with a BDC hold for center strikes on a 6 inch bull at 100. I hope to chrono this load and try it and a boat tail derivative at longer ranges in a couple of months.

So a bright sunny 5th of July - shining into the face on the shooting line, targets in shadow – humidity in the mid 60s. Time for tinted safety glasses. I also tried a padded welding glove on my left hand (I got big hands and official shooting mits don’t fit…) and the 1907 sling made a return, this time slung off front and front trigger guard swivels. Still wearing the DPM smock, service boots and fatigue pants = stay hydrated in the heat!

There was a large turn-out of mostly experienced shooters – a few friends and companions. Among them 6 AR15s (all competition tuned) and 5 Garands – I was the only bolt.
Having not practiced for over a month, I struggled in standing (I was not the only one fortunately) but found the x-ring and a near miss to compensate :/ for a 71. Rapid sitting had a major mis-feed of the first 5 rounds that needed time to clear – time for an "alibi". This was reset and shot a 91 . Rapid prone went much smoother and produced another decent score of 88. Slow prone started well, with a group that could have become a ragged hole and then slipped in the last 8 shots due to heat (exposed the ammo too long, rifle has scorching) and my fatigue. I did adjust for heat mid string ( -Left 1 MOA) but also sent fliers due to fatigue and I did not adjust for elevation for the hot ammo and scorching barrel..

I have noted that the rifle moves its pattern with cycling and heat predicatbly from the last 3 trips out = after 10 "sighters" and both rapids I need to move 1MOA left – will put this as part of my prep next time and see how it centers.
So in the end a 400 due to the standing and slow prone (all learning / experience) – could easily have been a 430 with “normal” slow prone. This still left the Garands behind and all but 3 of the ARs .
I noticed all the other shooters leave their left foot standing up on their toes and swing it around during prone – this has to act like a pendulum in my opinion – mine is flat and stays flat…I did mention it politely as they prepped, which was not taken (it’s because I’m a Britt isn’t it? – LOL) – but they all wanted to compare ideas on the resulting groups afterwards – but only about rifle tweaks…

So back to the reloading and equipment gathering – in time for mid-August shoots I hope, an insulated housing for the ammo is propoed. I may experiment with 0.308” 178-ish grain flat base offerings..

[jamie5070]

I know they aren't british issue, at least I don't think they were, but have you thought about trying a repo Kerr No-Buckle type sling.
john