Savage No. 4 (T) Scopeless stamps?

[wotter]

Hello all,
Something I would like clarified if possible.

Would you expect to find the 'TR' stamp on a scopeless Savage No.4 (T) ?

Was the 'TR' stamp put on No4 rifls showing potential at Weelon or the manufacturing factory?

Would they not have a 'T' on the side of the body (being not fully completed with a scope)?

Or looking at it the other way, what stamps should a Savage 'scopeless' have?

Many thanks

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[husk]

I've never seen a Scope-less Savage T with the T or TR marks, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Of the dozen or so that I've observed, all did have the H & H, S51 mark.

ATBAttachment 48553Attachment 48554Attachment 48555

[Brian Dick]

1. No
2. "TR" was stamped at BSA on rifles selected for accuracy.
3. No, the "T" was stamped upon completion with a scope fitted. Many, (mostly 1944), H&H conversions don't have it either. The only explanation is that there was a war on.

Savage rifles were converted at H&H so should have the S51 and examiner's marks present unless the butt has been changed.

Skennerton needs to publish more of "The No.4T, An Armourer's Perspective" by Peter Laidler since they are now out of print. It's all there if you can find a copy someplace.

[Badger]

Hello all,
Something I would like clarified if possible.

For those looking for additional information on Savage No.4(T) sniper rifle conversions, check the MKL and read this article by Advisory Panel member Lance:

1942 No.4 Mk1*(T) Savage Sniper Rifle (less scope)

Regards,
Doug

[Ridolpho]

Brian: Where were the D6E examiners stamp marks typically put on the Savage T's? Looking through the collection of photos I've managed to put together I can't find an example of it.

Ridolpho

[Brian Dick]

The examiner's marks will only be found on rifles that were completed with a telescope at H&H. They are in the same place as normal BSA produced rifles. On the top of the butt socket.

[Peter Laidler]

Not finished to 'T' spec, not marked - as it wasn't a T

[wotter]

Hello guys,
Information is much appreciated.

I checked out the '1942 No.4 Mk1*(T) Savage Sniper Rifle (less scope)' link, but I didn't read anything about what sort of stamps should be on a scopeless.
I may just have missed it.
However the pictures indicate that the 'T' and 'TR' are missing.
(The rest of the article gets confusing because it has a section on how to spot a 'Fake' No4 (T) which is a different beast altogether.)
Mention is made of Savage rifles being re-barreled with British made 5 groove barrels.
That sounds strange as I thought H&H rejected anything out of speck.
And if a rifle was chosen as having sniper potential, changing the barrel would be strange.

Skennerton does have the "The No.4T, An Armourer's Perspective" by Peter Laidler.
I got one from him last week; a terrific read.
Peter and Ian, I thoroughly enjoyed the way it was written.

In summary, am I right in thinking that:
- H&H had a some Savage rifles on hand during the No4 (T) conversion period from Nov '42 to April 46,
- Most or all of these Savages were Mk1 (not Mk1*)
- A few Savage rifles were fully converted by H&H when they ran low on other stocks of rifles.
- Some/most of the remaining Savage rifles had been fitted with scope pads and maybe cheek rests.
- These were handed over at end of contract and put into stores. (page 229. The L.E. book)

Does that sound about right?
(I'm one of those blokes who need it spelt out in 20 words or less, otherwise it all gets a bit confusing ;-)

[CINDERS]

Brian Dick also has limited No.s of the 32 scope booklet a worthy companion to Skennerton/Laidler book @$50.00AU landed in West Aus be quick as they will not last long

[Roger Payne]

H&H did indeed have some Savage No4's & those were a mix of both Mk1 & Mk1* rifles (along with BSA & Maltby rifles too). As might be expected the Mk1 rifles are very low serials, often 0C range with 1941 or 42 dates. The Mk1* rifles are generally in the 11 to 15C range & are always 1942 dated. Most (?all?) of the rifles that were left scopeless were Mk1*'s although a few 1*'s certainly were scoped up; I have owned two or three & still have one. Judging by scope serials on the rifles seen they were all (at least in my limited experience) converted early on, as the scoped rifles I have seen bear serials of Mk1 scopes. There is still some discussion as to when the incomplete/scopeless' rifles were set up - it has been mentioned before on this forum that these rifles were partially completed at the very death by H&H so as to maximise their revenue from the British government before the contracts were cancelled in April 1946. That may be the case, though I am really not sure; there are definitely minor differences in the shape of front body pads that seem to have occurred as production progressed - only subtle differences in a radius - but noticeable to someone who has seen a few, & I have never seen a 'late' front pad on any Savage rifle, be it complete with scope or otherwise. Having said that, for purchasing purposes I guess it doesn't matter whether it was set up in 1942 or 1946, so long as it is a 'real one'!

The reason, as Brian alludes, why the early markings are so variable is that H&H received their early supplies from rifles that had been completed & were already in the system. That is also why there are rifles found from more than one manufacturer. Once it was decided that all future supplies of sniper's rifles were to come from BSA Shirley the situation became much more straight forward, with the initial selection being made at Shirley & marked by the presence of the TR on the butt socket. This is why the later conversions are much more uniformly marked.

Hope that helps.