Mystery SMLE No1 Mk 1

[KiwiLee]

Have a Question, a SMLE No 1 Mk 1 that is all original as a Mk 1 , it doesn't have any of the * ( star ) improvements of later rifles, research shows that Mk1's were dated 1902 , with improved * , ** , *** rifles coming along after this time ie 1906, 1908 an 1914, as per photo my BSA Mk 1 shows a date of 1910 ???? - why ? , am I missing something under my nose , I have seen one other in NZ with same markings and that owner believes there are more about - thanks

Information

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[owengun]

I remember reading somewhere in the past that New Zealand has a lot of these 1910 dated Mk.1's floating around. I think the reason was that they still had not upgraded their ammo from the old pattern and had ordered a new batch from BSA who just cranked out another batch of Mk.1's for them. The NZ rack number is strange as in that the lower number (05) usually is taken to mean the year it was taken into service there, which would imply 1905, maybe that was when they were ordered, which would then make more sense. NZ went to war in WW1 with MK.1 rifles and only upgraded to Mk.III's and Mk.III*'s in theatre.

[Roy]

According to the Sullivans book The New Zealand Mounted rifles received No. 1 Mk 1's in between 1910-1913, the infantry had MLE's until Gallipoli. The examples I have seen are dated 1904, and 1910 though there may be other dates. The 05 on the wrist is probably a batch number. Perhaps a sticky tread on NZ wrist markings would add more to the subject. NZ most likely bought outdated rifles because they were cheap! (they bought 50K odd second hand MLE's in 1914) and yes the CAC were making Mk6 .303 until at least 1917. Sht LE's sighted to Mk6 have a more pronounced hump on the sight bed and many No1 Mk1's were re-sighted post 1910 when Mk7 .303 was introduced, though initially Mk7 was reserved for the Machine Gun Corp. Mk6 .303 was still widely used in the early years of WW1. I have never seen any NZ marked No1 Mk1's with the '*' upgrades.

[KiwiLee]

Thanks guys - I think you are on the right track - the Govt was tight 100 yrs ago ( still much the same today with defence spending ) , BSA fulfilled any order from NZ with what they had on hand at the right ( cheap ! ) price.

[5thBatt]

NZ brought replacement barreled actions to refurb existing stocks of rifles, this has been noted for both NZ carbines & Long Lees, the NZ carbines the rack number & year of acceptance was transfered from the old action to the new action & as the Long Lees had these markings on the butt plate tang the receivers remained un-marked other than a N^Z stamp.
Now there is no reason not to suspect we did the same with the Mk1 SMLE & yours is likely a replacement that has received a earlier rifles rack number & acceptance date.
Here is my 1904 NZ marked Mk1 SMLE, note the rack number is 300 higher than yours but carries the same 05 acceptance date but the rifle dates from 6 years earlier.

BTW the Mk1 SMLE is not called a No1 Mk1, it never received the No1 designation.

[Roy]

When did the Sht LE 1 enter NZ service? My understanding is outlined in the earlier post, 1910-1913. A Sht LE 1 wouldn't have had received the rack number of a MLE or Carbine which the NZMR would have had in 1910 but had accepted into service in 1905? Does anyone have any more NZ rack numbers with are 'younger' than the year of the rifle. I have two Sht LE III's but the rack numbers correspond with the years of the rifles (1908 -09 and 1912- 12) Both of which are older than the supposed entry of the Sht LE III into NZ service.

[5thBatt]

When did the Sht LE 1 enter NZ service? My understanding is outlined in the earlier post, 1910-1913. A Sht LE 1 wouldn't have had received the rack number of a MLE or Carbine which the NZMR would have had in 1910 but had accepted into service in 1905? Does anyone have any more NZ rack numbers with are 'younger' than the year of the rifle. I have two Sht LE III's but the rack numbers correspond with the years of the rifles (1908 -09 and 1912- 12) Both of which are older than the supposed entry of the Sht LE III into NZ service.

Roy, have a look here.
http://www.armsregister.com/arms_register/rifles.html

[Roy]

Thanks, that has corrected me on many things, Ill have to check my references which may be incorrect, though I suspect I am! So all Sht LE's prior to WW1 in NZ were used by the MR's Artillery and Engineers and the infantry made do with MLE's until WW1.

[KiwiLee]

Could these rifles have been a batch of trails rifles , with slight improvements ? ie front sight , there are quite a number floating around NZ , three in my town alone, all with either 1904 0r 1910 dates

[Colonel Enfield]

NZ went to war in WW1 with MK.1 rifles and only upgraded to Mk.III's and Mk.III*'s in theatre.

I've seen 1918 dated Mk III* rifles with NZ markings on them, which indicates to me they were ordering brand-new rifles by the time the war ended rather than just going for whatever was on clearance from the gun trade.