Recent Inheritance: "CSA" M1809

[garrettbragg12]

I have recently inherited from a Great Aunt what I've learned is a Prussian M1809. I've been told since I was old enough to hold it that its been in our family since the civil war, in which part of our family, the Mackeys, fought with the confederacy. But as a collector I also know take those stories with a grain of salt. I've learned that they were once flint rifles and then converted to percussion, and is .71 caliber. Mine bears marks from its time with the 15th Landwher Regiment. One thing that was pointed out and I'd like to learn more about, is the "CSA" cartouche, which I've been told is most likely faked. Id like to get your thoughts on the stamp!

Please excuse the cell phone pictures, as it's all I had at the time!

Attachment 64205
Attachment 64206
Attachment 64207
Attachment 64208
Attachment 64209

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[vintage hunter]

Id like to get your thoughts on the stamp!

Fake.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Photo 1) As far as one can tell from the photos, it is
EITHER
a Prussian M1809, converted to percussion from 1839 on, when the M/39 was introduced as a new percussion musket.
OR
an M/39. The 2 types look so similar that one needs a close-up of the lockplate and surrounding wood to tell the difference.


Check: the old percussion-conversion M1809s had a bore of 18,56mm. The M/39 had a bore of (max) 18.3mm. Bores wear, but if the bore is less than 18.5mm it is the M/39.


Photo 2) The buttplate seems to be marked to the 15th Landwehr - I can't think of any other unit that would abbreviate to LWR.


Photo 3) The stamp is upside down. It is the Prussian crown over FR (for Friedrich Wilhelm). The usual inspection/acceptance stamp for the completed musket.


Photo 4) Again upside down. Crown over S is the personal stamp of the inspector, whose name presumably began with S.


Photo 5) Is a forgery with modern punches. How very, very stupid to spoil what would otherwise be a serious collector's item by faking up a false provenance.

[garrettbragg12]

Photo 1) As far as one can tell from the photos, it is
EITHER
a Prussian M1809, converted to percussion from 1839 on, when the M/39 was introduced as a new percussion musket.
OR
an M/39. The 2 types look so similar that one needs a close-up of the lockplate and surrounding wood to tell the difference.


Check: the old percussion-conversion M1809s had a bore of 18,56mm. The M/39 had a bore of (max) 18.3mm. Bores wear, but if the bore is less than 18.5mm it is the M/39.


Photo 2) The buttplate seems to be marked to the 15th Landwehr - I can't think of any other unit that would abbreviate to LWR.


Photo 3) The stamp is upside down. It is the Prussian crown over FR (for Friedrich Wilhelm). The usual inspection/acceptance stamp for the completed musket.


Photo 4) Again upside down. Crown over S is the personal stamp of the inspector, whose name presumably began with S.


Photo 5) Is a forgery with modern punches. How very, very stupid to spoil what would otherwise be a serious collector's item by faking up a false provenance.

Thanks a ton for breaking it down. The cartouches on these are allot more fancy looking than the M1 stocks I'm used to!

Here's the only pic of the lock plate I have as of now:
Attachment 64232

With the faked CSA stamp, would it be frowned upon to do a little wood work to cover it up?

[gew8805]

Thanks a ton for breaking it down. The cartouches on these are allot more fancy looking than the M1 stocks I'm used to!

Here's the only pic of the lock plate I have as of now:
Attachment 64232

With the faked CSA stamp, would it be frowned upon to do a little wood work to cover it up?

Definitely frowned upon, they are fairly deep and will be impossible to remove without doing more damage. The "CSA" fake markings are there, they are now a part of the gun's history. Just be sure to let people who look at it know that they are not what they appear to be.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Yes, it's an M1809 / 39 conversion. The clue is the teat-ended ex-flintlock lockplate and the shaping of the wood to follow that contour. The new-as-percussion versions had rounded back ends to the lockplates and the wood was also shaped to match the rounded end.


As the original Prussian markings look so sharp, the gun seems to be overall in "low-mileage" condition with excellent woodwork. So I agree with gew8805 - leave it alone and curse Bubba.

[gsimmons]

You also need to take it out and shoot it. It's one of my favourites to shoot.

[majspud]

My M39 lockplate (1849 Suhl contract M39/55 rifled musket).

T

[garrettbragg12]

Well the rifles finally home! Found some stamps I hadn't seen before:
Attachment 64697
Attachment 64698
Attachment 64699

Next step is to learn how to shoot her, get all the supplies, and make sure she's in a shoot able condition by securing any cracks and rust! Any advice is appreciated!