Lee-Enfield No.4 RARE Bolt Head size 4

[Beerhunter]

the number stamped on the bolt head really means nothing. You can lay out ten of each number and they all measure differently.

I wonder if some armourers used the SMLE method to fit bolts sometimes? That is to say, if they did not have one of the correct size, they took an oversize one and stoned it to fit.

Over to you for comment Capt. Laidler.

[Brian Dick]

I know from experience that the measurements can be all over the place once they've been fitted. Sometimes they've been turned on the thread side too to bring them into spec. All the little fitting tricks that most don't know about. I no longer sell bolt heads outright for these reasons. It's a total crap shoot as to whether one single bolt head will fit and time up correctly to an individual bolt assembly. It was ALWAYS a select fitting process and the factories/Armourers had bins full of them in which to do so.

I agree that the scarcity of the longer ones is attributed to most U.S. collector/shooters who forget that the old .303 is never going to be a match 7.62. It's simply apples and oranges. Add the fact that correct MoD spec headspace gauges, (I discount and dislike coin gauges), are unavailable here unless you special order them and it has created much mythology. I, along with others have been working to dispell these myths with some success I might add. I only get a few calls a month from panicked Lee owners now when it used to be a weekly occurrence!

[Roger Payne]

Hi Brian, I just got the rifle out of the rack & the '4' bolt head is on a Maltby rifle & is also of Maltby manufacture itself. Looks like there are a few of them around.....
I also have at least one double zero somewhere lurking about.

ATB

[Brian Dick]

Roger, I think your hypothesis that factories made them to get the rifles out the door may well be correct. People also forget that the numbered/sized bolt heads were never intended for later headspace upgrade. They were designed for production expediency. Fit bolt head in spec and get the rifles down the line into the hands of the troops. The big FTR programs and such never even started late/post war.

---------- Post added at 01:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 PM ----------

should read until late/post war.

---------- Post added at 01:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:06 PM ----------

Does anyone know what the "official" life expectancy of a service rifle was during WWII?

[Peter Laidler]

The fact is that they are known to exist and although I don't remember seeing one and certainly not in UK service, they have come to light on Ex Indian riflkes which gives rise to the previously acknowledged assumption. But if what Brian says is absolutely correct and it's a F marked No4 size then it is a matter that deserves investigating simply because it indicates one of two things if you've already tried the calibrated bolt body test. 1) the rifle body is worn away at the locking shoulders or 2) the rear cartridge face of the barrel is a few .000"s short. The latter is a simple fix and if not that, then by deguction the rifle body no longer conforms to the design standard and is by definition, unserviceable.

But if there was the remotest chance that a service Armourer would encounter one of this size in our service, then we WOULD know about it. Just like we were told about the slightly higher foresight block band and the 00 size 19T bolt heads encountered on some L39's built on new Mk2 bodies. Unless someone has a different copy of the old pre-EMER inspection standard sheets that I haven't got. Can of worms or what........

[Beerhunter]

Roger, I think your hypothesis that factories made them to get the rifles out the door may well be correct. People also forget that the numbered/sized bolt heads were never intended for later headspace upgrade. They were designed for production expediency. Fit bolt head in spec and get the rifles down the line into the hands of the troops. The big FTR programs and such never even started late/post war.

---------- Post added at 01:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 PM ----------

should read until late/post war.

---------- Post added at 01:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:06 PM ----------

I have a talk that I give to history groups on one hundred and one years of the British Infantry Rifle. (I you are in the UK, I do it for free.) I use the bolt head fitting procedure on the production line to illustrate the raison d'etre of the No.4 - a rifle to be made by semi-skilled staff backed up by a few skilled workers in wartime. Try a different number in turn and if none of them are acceptable, put the rifle to one side for "fitting" by a skilled worker.

[Peter Laidler]

There's not a No4 size in the earliest pre-illustrated lithographed thin paper parts list! I'm bound to ask that if accepting slightly worn bodies is acceptable, why not accept, say .003" or so MORE than slightly worn and have a size 5 bolthead. I feel that I have to admit that these BH's WERE a factory sub-standard (or do I mean a sub-standard factory fit?)only fit (we ain't seen a BSA, Enfield LB or S yet though) to get out-of-spec weapons out of the door. But struggle to come to terms with the fact that at a Base workshop, a size 3 is NOT permitted simply due to the fact that if a 3 were acceptably at that level, the chop is not far away!

[Seaspriter]

Roger, I think your hypothesis that factories made them to get the rifles out the door may well be correct. People also forget that the numbered/sized bolt heads were never intended for later headspace upgrade. They were designed for production expediency. Fit bolt head in spec and get the rifles down the line into the hands of the troops. The big FTR programs and such never even started until post war

I have a talk that I give to history groups on one hundred and one years of the British Infantry Rifle. (I you are in the UK, I do it for free.) I use the bolt head fitting procedure on the production line to illustrate the raison d'etre of the No.4 - a rifle to be made by semi-skilled staff backed up by a few skilled workers in wartime. Try a different number in turn and if none of them are acceptable, put the rifle to one side for "fitting" by a skilled worker.

Beerhunter and others:
I'm very interested in your insights/research into what standards were used for both the manufacturing and repair of rifles during the heat of the war. What you say about moving production during the heat of a crisis makes imminent sense.

Below is a photo of the butt of my favorite Savage Enfield. 77CXXX series (production ~ Nov 43), probably used during D-day, as it was sent for repair and repair was completed 12-44.



First, does FR stand for Field Repair or Factory Repair, or something else?
Second: obviously the butt was replaced (looks like American Black Walnut -- the original would have been birch), but also the bolt was replaced with a Savage 59CXXXX (~June 1943), and the receiver was Parkerized (not Suncorite). It was an early import into the U.S. with a BNP Nitro Proof (post 1954), and "ENGLAND" stamp, but no other import marks (my experience has been in the late '50s and early '60s, a paper tag was attached to label the country of origin). I purchased it from an estate sale and its condition was untouched from the time of import.
Third: Given the repairs to the butt stock, what is the chance it was taken off another battle-weary gun?
Fourth: Does anyone have any detail on Repair Standards for Lee Enfields returned from battle to be reissued? Were they repaired in a Field Armoury (i.e. in France behind the front lines) or returned back to the UK? As Captain Laidler and others have commented (don't let me infer anything here), it was more of grab what ever was in the parts bin, make it fit, and move it out! -- a wartime standard. This, of course is quite different from a post war FTR program or normal base arsenal repair.

Your insights and research is well appreciated.

[Roger Payne]

I just re-read the OP's initial posting, but he doesn't mention the manufacturer of his '4' bolt head. It would be interesting to know. Any chance you could have a look please Fred24?

[CINDERS]

and Burmese spitfires

When and if they ever find them or dig them up I guess we will be amazed, Peter what I alluded to there must have been a standard size for each of the bolt heads from 0-3 E.G All size 0's could be .635", 2's = .645" etc instead of the manufacturer going willy nilly from anywhere under or over those measurements what I am saying long winded is they had a standard size for each type and from that you guys could adjust by lathe to get the correct H/S