New P14

[Dalebert]

Bill,

You're correct about the star stamp below the RE. It's a poorly stamped star with an even more poorly stamped star immediately below it. It's as if the inspector realized his poor mark and did a worse job on the second attempt.

The chamber does have the milling you describe.

So seems like it's a reworked 16 with a different stock added at some point after the upgrade.

[A square 10]

this one has some interesting aspects , foreign service by that disc - military aid ?

[oldfoneguy]

Glad I could help Dale.
I truly enjoy unlocking the secrets old milsurp rifles hold.
Now if we could only get them to talk! - Bill

[harry mac]

Hello, new member here but I'm a longtime milsurp lover. Your receiver looks to have the star marking just below the R E which indicates it had the larger bolt lug upgrade in December 1916. This designates the rifle as a P14 MkI*. If that is the case the volley sights are incorrect for that rifle as they were removed when this upgrade was done. There should also be a MkI* stamp on the buttstock around the makers mark if the stock is original to the rifle. I believe the daisy stamp on the bolt indicates this upgrade as well. The location of the serial number on the bolt indicates this as well because the number was originally on the underside of the bolt handle making this somewhat of a force match. With the bolt open you should see a milled half circle at the base of the barrel just before the chamber, this was done to facilitate the larger bolt lug. If you remove the hand guards there should be a year stamping on the chamber which will tell you the year it was made. Mine is on the left side of the chamber. A guesstamate based on Remington's first date of manufacture for these of 3/25/16 and an average production of 1000 rifles per day makes your rifle to be made on or around mid October 1916 which seems correct for the MkI* upgrade as all rifles made in and after December 1916 didn't require it. I know all of this after much research due to the purchase of my Remington P14 about a month ago! Mine is in the high 93,000's also with the upgrade and most of the same markings but no import mark with a guesstamate build date of 6/26/16. Oh and I'm retired so I have the time for this kind of research.
They are nice rifles and mine shoots very well, enjoy it. - Bill

Bill, the * modification was not an "upgrade" carried out on rifles in service. It was incorporated during the manufacturing process.
The only way this would have happened as part of the Weedon programme would have been if a Mk1 rifle was found needing a rebarrel, in which case a Mk1* barrel may have been used to carry out the repair.
Just to show the difference between your MK1* and my Mk1, here's a pic of the breech area on mine.
By the way, mine appears to have escaped the Weedon process all together.

[oldfoneguy]

Bill, the * modification was not an "upgrade" carried out on rifles in service. It was incorporated during the manufacturing process.
The only way this would have happened as part of the Weedon programme would have been if a Mk1 rifle was found needing a rebarrel, in which case a Mk1* barrel may have been used to carry out the repair.
Just to show the difference between your MK1* and my Mk1, here's a pic of the breech area on mine.
By the way, mine appears to have escaped the Weedon process all together.

Harry, the Weedon repair standard is not what I'm referring to. The Weedon repair center performed their upgrades on P14/No3 rifles from 1939-1942 during WWII when everything that could shoot was being pressed into service. The Weedon standard was there to make sure the P14/No3's could be shot safely.

What Dalebert and I have are rifles that were changed to the .010 larger bolt lug upgrade in December 1916 which changed the rifles designation to the P14 MkI*. As a proof of this change being performed the "star" stamp was applied to the receiver by the manufactures mark as can be seen in the picture of my receiver and an asterisk stamp added to the butt. Any rifle manufactured during and after December 1916 did not require the upgrade as they were originally manufactured with the larger bolt lugs but all (if possible) rifles made between March and November 1916 were required to have the change made. When it was found a rifle hadn't had this work done previously it was done at Weedon at that time.

Please read the following which is an excerpt from the Remington Society Of America Journal page 20 - 4th quarter 2010.

In December 1916, a new bolt with a longer locking lug was approved for the .303 Pattern 1914 Mk I rifle. This necessitated a new barrel with a deeper recess for the lug. These new rifles were designated the Mk I*E (for those manufactured at Eddystone) and Mk I*R (Remington) and Mk I*W (Winchester). In today's collector market, original, unaltered P-14 Mk I rifles are rarely encountered, as few were made and many of those were converted to Mk I* configuration.

It's a very interesting read and gives volumes of information on these rifles and their manufacture.
I am including a link to the complete article so you can enjoy it as much as I have.

Remington Society of America - journals/Eddystone

It's very possible you have a rifle that has had neither of these changes made to it which would make it a somewhat rare item.
I'm sure there were some rifles that "slipped through the cracks" and had nothing done to them and if you have one that would make you a very lucky man indeed! - Bill

[oldfoneguy]

Harry some further information has come to light which now makes perfect sense. Initially the rifles that were to be upgraded to the larger bolt lug were suppose to have the barrel changed to facilitate this. Apparently this was deemed unnecessary and for expedience a half circle was instead machined into the existing barrel face for the larger bolt lug which created the rifles that Dalebert and I have. - Bill

[Seaspriter]

Remington Society of America - journals/Eddystone

Great Article. A corner of history that had been so dark. Gives lots of information that adds some real color to my P-14. Thanks for the link.

[harry mac]

As I understand it completed rifles were not upgraded to * spec, rather the spec itself was upgraded, and rifles assembled after a certain serial number would have been assembled with the upgrade already incorporated in their components. I suspect any uninstalled Mk1 barrels on hand at the time would have had their breech faces remachined to accept the longer bolt lug, but assembled rifles of Mk1 spec would have been shipped "as is".

[oldfoneguy]

Harry you are most likely correct. I can only reiterate information I have read but will never consider myself an expert on these rifles, at best a somewhat versed amateur!

However the rifle I have was made during mid to late June 1916 based on its serial number and published production figures, it does have the milled barrel face and was brought up to * spec someplace and sometime unknown.
Perhaps it was done by one of the various English contractors at the time of the Weedon repairs during WWII which makes more sense than pulling rifles off the line during a war unless it was deemed a dangerous condition.

My P14 didn't come in it's original stock so there are no markings that give me a definitive answer as to where and when it was changed over to * spec.
The bolt does have what appears to be a force match serial number in a non original location, no actual manufacturers markings but does have the daisy stamp.

Also what the need for the larger bolt lug was has never been explained especially on such an already robust rifle. If you have any info on this I'd love to know it.

When comparing the bolt of my M1917 to my P14 bolt it seems this change was not incorporated into the M1917, so why was it deemed necessary for the less powerful .303 round?

I assume when the new spec was introduced any already manufactured but not yet shipped rifles would have been pulled back in and had the change made in the US where possible.
I have read of an anywhere from 3 week to 3 month time lapse between manufacture, acceptance and shipment which would leave a possible window going back to September 1916 manufactured rifles which could have been modified in the US but this is purely speculation on my part. - Bill

[Patrick Chadwick]

"Does anyone know what the markings on brass disc indicate or a resource that would?"


Try the Koran! HINT - it's not "God" and it's not "Jehovah".




"foreign service by that disc - military aid ? "


I suppose you could call it that.