No. 3 MKI* (T)

[Tom Jackson]

I have two WRA No. 3 MKI* (T) sniper rifles. One has a non-matching PP scope and the other has a matching BSA scope with Irish markings. Over the years I have handled or seen pictures of 10-12 No. 3 MKI* (T) rifles with PP or BSA scopes. I don't recall ever seeing a rifle with matching PP scope. Conversely, all of the rifles with BSA scopes were matching rigs. All of the rifles (BSA or PP) I have actually handled had stocks and forearms that had been apparently armory refinished. I saw on another site that all 79 of the Irish BSA snipers along with an additional 33 PP snipers were imported to the U.S. by Interarmco in 1961. Does anyone know if the 33 PP snipers imported in 1961 account for the mismatched PP rifles that occasionally are offered for sale here in the US? Were there any other PP rifles imported? The BSA and PP snipers seem to turn up in about equal numbers - which is to say they are fairly rare. Does anyone maintain a data base of these rifles. There is not a lot of information in print beyond Skenerton's books and a few photos of the rifles in service either for training in Europe or in combat in the Pacific. I would like to see if there is any new information available.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Promo]

Tom, the Irish contract rifles can be identified because of their front scope block. The BSA made snipers feature a much more square shaped with rounded edges front base, while the WWI PPCo bases are more round. To my knowledge also the Irish contract rifles feature the W suffix with the serial number on the rear and look to be machine engraved, while the WWI PPCo snipers seem to sometimes lack the W suffix, and have this number stamped.

I don't know where I got this information from but to what I remember the BSA rifles were made because there were not enough rifles in stock to fullfill the Irish order. This could mean that the 33 PPCo snipers you mention could also origin from Ireland, but were the ones they received from WWI.

It's not plausible for me that there are only the Irish sniper rifles in the US, pretty sure there must be some from WWI also around. But where these are located, no idea.

One question, is either of your two rifles with a scope can? If yes, is it matching numbers to your rifle?

Some here keep a serial number database on those guns, to what I've seen most are in the higher serial ranges, around 200.xxx and higher.

[Badger]

For members who wish to know more about these sniper rifles, check the MKL in the Sniper Rifles Category (click here) for both examples including the BSA and PP scoped versions.

No.3 MkI* (T) Rifle (BSA Scope) - (Pattern 1914 Mk1* W (T) Sniper Rifle)
(Manufactured by Winchester - Serial #W226763)
c/w Model 1918 (3x) Scope Serial #226763 (Mfg by B.S.A Guns)
c/w 1907 Pattern leather sling


No.3 MkI* (T) Rifle (PP Scope) - (Pattern 1914 Mk1* W (T) Sniper Rifle)
(Manufactured by Winchester - Serial #W196128)
c/w Model 1918 (3x) Scope (Mfg by Periscopic Prism Co. Ltd.)
c/w 1908 Web Pattern sling (Mfg in 1913 by M.E. Co.)

Hope that helps ...

Regards,
Doug

[Tom Jackson]

Promo/Badger:

I latest information that I have indicates that the Irish Republic received 79 No.3 MkI*(T) rifles with BAS scopes and "FF" marked bases but MAY have also received an additional 33 rifles w/PP scopes. In any case Interarmco imported 111 No. 3 MKI*(T) rifles to the U.S. in 1960. This apparently included all 79 rifles w/BSA scopes. What I am trying to determine is whether the 33 rifles that were fitted with PP scopes imported in 1960 represents the majority (or total) of the No.3MKI*(T) rifles w/PP scopes imported to the U.S. As I indicated in my previous post, ALL of the rifles I have observed with BSA scopes have matching serial numbers. NONE of the rifles w/PP scopes have matching serial numbers. For what it is worth I have seen a few more Irish (BSA) rifles than rifles w/PP Scopes. The serial number of my BSA scoped rifle is "W237736" and the mount has the Irish "FF" stamp. My PP scoped rifle (Winchester) is serial number "210291" and the scope is serial numbered "204407". The stock on the PP rifle is stamped with the rifle serial number. The stock on the BSA scoped rifle does not appear to be serial numbered. The PP rifle has a British pattern scope case that is numbered to the scope. Both rifles are in generally the same condition as the rifles in Badger's pictures. The stocks on both rifles have apparently been sanded during some sort of overhaul. The rear sight serial numbers on both rifles have been struck out.

There is not a lot of information on No.3MKI*(T) rifles - in the case of the BSA scoped rifles there is not a lot of history either (they were manufactured for the Irish Republic, delivered in 1938 and sold in 1960). What I would like to determine is how many rifles w/PP scopes are here in the U.S. and where they originally came from (UK or Ireland).

Thanks for the help and information.

[Promo]

Hey Tom, just found this: Collectors Firearms Archives - Home . That would suggest the BSA snipers originally came with their matching numbers scope cases.

Is your scope case to the PPCo scope made in a different manner than the one in my link?

[Tom Jackson]

Promo:

My scope case appears to be exactly like the one pictured but it is numbered to the PP scope on my WRA No. 3(T) 210291. The case and scope are numbered 204407 and the case is stamped with a British Broad Arrow property mark.

[Promo]

Tom, how is the rifles serial of your PPCo scoped P.14 rifle marked on the "ears" of the receiver? With or without a W suffix? And engraved or stamped?

And when you compare your two rifles, is there something they share in common? Like do they have an additional serial number somewhere on the stock? Are they both with the W suffix to the serial? Looking at the rifle here: WWI P14 Sniper photos Forgotten Weapons it appears that this is also a PPCo scoped P.14 sniper, which is in the US (and it features the serial number in the wood, in front of the magazine guard), plus the stock not sanded. I wonder if this one would also come from Interarm? Does this company still exist and do they have a serial number list of rifles they imported?

Edit: these are the PPCo/BSA scoped rifles from the Bruce Stern collection, sold by James D. Julia auctions in 2008:

*US MADE WINCHESTER P14 SNIPER RIFLE
*US MADE WINCHESTER P14 SNIPER RIFLE
*US MADE WINCHESTER P14 SNIPER RIFLE
*US MADE WINCHESTER P14 SNIPER RIFLE
All of these four have the square type front base, so they all appear to come from the Irish contract.

[JGaynor]

Back in the day (mid to late 60's) I had two P14 snipers. (Rifle No. 3 Mk1* T)

One was S/N W 159158 with matching S/n BSA model 1918 Scope The rear scope base had the Irish Free State Mark.
This rifle and scope came into the US via Interterms. Unfortunately the rifle was the property of a friend. One day we shooting at a nearby outdoor range south of Washington, DC. While he was shooting the scope suddenly went "blind". Upon inspection we determined one of the tiny image erector lenses and simply disintegrated. He subsequently gave the rifle to me.

The second was S/N W08529 .
I purchased it though a classified ad In SARCO's Shotgun new section for $35.00

It did not come with a scope however I was fortunate enough to come across a second BSA model 1918 scope (Irish Free State Marked) S/N 178656. This second scope came with the fabric covered case like th one pictured above. This case was marked with the scope serial number.

I don't have any pics since i acquired and disposed of both rifles before digital cameras however i maintained a small notebook with detailed decritptions.

One last note! Given what happened to my friend's rifle I would strongly ADVISE AGAINST FIRING IT WITH THE SCOPE MOUNTED!

[JGaynor]

I wonder if this one would also come from Interarm? Does this company still exist and do they have a serial number list of rifles they imported?

Georg, International Armament Corporation aka Interarmco and then later as Interterms. Was the 800 pound gorilla in the US surplus arms business in the 50's and 60's. It appears that what was left of the company was acquired by the High Standard Manufacturing Company of Houston Texas, Whether or not HS maintained the old InterArms records is a good question. I would tend to doubt it as I think there would little economic reason for them to do so.

[Tom Jackson]

Promo,

My PP scoped rifle has the serial number, "210281" stamped on the right sight protector, the stamping appears to be more hand-stamped than rolled. The serial number is also stamped on the underside of the stock in front of the floor
plate. The bolt body is polished. The PP scope for on this rifle is serial numbered "204407". The case is also marked with the serial number and a British Broad Arrow property mark. My BSA scoped rifle has the serial number "W237736" roll-stamped on the right sight protector and scope but has no serial number on the stock. The bolt body on this rifle is blued. I don't have both rifles in the same location so I can't compare the scope base configuration.

Most of the PP and BSA rifles I have looked at had the stocks sanded to some degree. The few rifles that did not had BSA scopes. Possibly the 33 PP scoped rifles furnished to the Irish Republic from British stores were overhauled prior to shipment.

Since I started this thread I have found serial numbers for 14 No.3MKI(T) rifles. Nine of these of rifles were Irish rifles with matching BSA scopes. Of the five PP rifles one was missing a scope and one possibly had a matching scope. The other three rifles had mismatched scopes. Although this number is too small for a meaningful sample it does tend to substantiate the idea that the 79 BSA and 33 PP scoped rifles purchased by Interarms from the Irish Republic MAY represent most or all of the No.3 MK1(T) rifles imported to the U.S. I cannot believe that more than a couple of hundred No.3 MKI (T) rifles with PP scopes survived WWII. Some of these rifles were clearly used for training in the UK during the war but I imagine that the majority of the less than 2000 PP scoped rifles were lost in service during 1940-1942.