The two deputies killed in Florida 6 weeks ago...

[PhillipM]

This is the case where two deputies were shot at a gun range on a domestic dispute call. A friend of mine was friends with the perpetrator, they were in the same guard unit. What my friend said happened was the wife liked to start beating on him and he fought back. She went call the cops, and went to the hospital with some bruising and minor abrasions (I'm not excusing the man hitting his wife). After the fight he went to the gun range to blow off some steam, the wife knew this and told the cops where he was. The deputies went to the gun range and again, as was told to my friend, tazered without warning. Perp was able to pull out the probes, drew a belly gun and started shooting, and eventually killed both. He then took off, got the spike strips, came out of the rolled truck blazing away, basically suicide by cop. My friend said he took 60 rounds.

I guess there is the danger if they had waited that the perp could have gone on a killing spree, but it seems to me the prudent thing to would have been to let him blow off steam and calm down, wait for him to come back home and arrest him there.

You LEO's be careful out there!

http://www.nwfdailynews.com/news/car...-deputies.html

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[jon_norstog]

two ways this guy could have been picked up by existing gun laws: if he had ever been hospitalized as a head case, if he ever had a restraining order out on him. But if he's already got the gun, he can buy all the ammo he wants.

I got questions. What does he need a belly gun for at the range? Tazed without warning? Were they trying to arrest him, or what? Where was his family and friends? If he didn't like being hit by a woman, why hang around with her?

Lots of questions, no answers. Two good men dead. Maybe we ought to start watching out for each other a little better?

jn

[Bill Hollinger]

I've been to too many cop funerals over the years. I cringe at the thought of another one! My prayers go out to the families of both officers.

[jon_norstog]

A little followup on two officers down ...

I came across this today.

SafeState : Focus Areas : Domestic Violence : Firearms and Domestic Violence

It sites some statistics, for openers. In 2005, 1,858 women and girls were murdered by men and boys. The most common weapon was a gun, used in 52% of the cases (72% of those cases in which a weapon was used). The study didn't focus on women killing men, which does happen, but not as much.

Anyway, the website goes on to say that there is a 2-county pilot study in California where Family Court, when it issues a restraining order, also issues a firearms confiscation order. The person who is served with the order has 24 hours to turn in all his (or her) guns and ammo. After that they send out the sheriff.

Well, I suspect this is something that a lot of people on this list might have a comment or two about. But if it all went according to plan, it's the sort of thing that could have saved the lives of two officers in Florida. On the other hand, I can see a firearms confiscation turning into a SWAT call pretty easily. Guess I'll wait for the results of the pilot study.

Meanwhile, I think if the NRA wanted to do us some good, it would figure out an alternate method of dealing with "problem" gun owners, an alternative to government confiscation.

Well, that's my two cents worth, anyway.

jn

[Capt Quahog]

Perhaps there needs to be an addendum to the police field manual. This situation just on it's face looks to be a formula for disaster. Let's see . . . a domestic dispute with a violent husband and wife beef. The husband can be figured to be in a confrontational mindset and is at a gun range, probably with a weapon in lock n' mode. Talk about a dangerous scenario!

Cops go into the place and just Taser the guy? There must be a part or two of this story that's been left out. Logic would suggest that even a know nothing civilian like myself would size up the situation. Then try to first talk with the guy to find out where his head is at. It would be assumed, especially by trained police personnel, that this jerk is armed without a gun being in sight. Using overt non-lethal force against a possible lethally armed individual is very stupid. Something big is missing in this story.

Anyway it's sliced . . . the whole thing is a very bad and sad situation. If this saga is true, then a good n' slippery lawyer could possibly work the initial Taser attack into the killer's court defense. So stunned by the electrical shock was he, that instinct took over. The harsh electrical pulse of the non-lethal weapon short circuited the defendant's brain and the police officers were seen to be just two blurry attackers. It was a form of instinctive self defense carried-out by his active sub-conscious during temporary amnesia having been directly caused by the cop's Taser. Then they have a couple of paid whowa psychiatrists testify for the defense to back up this pile of bullcrap.

All there has to be is reasonable doubt in the jury's thinking. The way it is, if some hotshot DA goes for a Murder-One thing and over-charges this guy, a jury could let him walk. As weird and perverse as things are these days, the law enforcement officers might even be blamed for causing their own deaths.

[Dave]

How should the NRA figure a way to deal with "problem gun owners"? Hell they can't be identified until they become a "problem". Anyone can become a "problem" at any time. If it is a violent problem confiscation is the only answer, altho not a sure fire cure!
I think domestic violence calls are the one of the most dangerous, for a responding officier, thats where something has to be figured out.

[jon_norstog]

Dave,

The reason I asked that question is this: if there's a problem and the community can't solve it, then government will step in. Nature abhors a vacuum. The NRA has the resources ... maybe they could put them to work? Come up with a community solution?

The alternative is government confiscation actions, which may create more problems than they solve. I, personally, would not go out to someone's place to take away his guns unless I had SWAT there to back me up.

I, for one, would like to see a way to deal with cases like the one in Florida that didn't involve government action, and preferably in a way that didn't cost anyone their lives. We got the brainpower. Is that too much to ask?

jn

[John Sukey (Deceased)]

Mr. Norstag, Similar questions using that premise could be
1. How can the pharmaceutical industry deal with drug addicts?
2. How can the automobile industry deal with car theft?
3. How can the liquor industry deal with DRUNKS?

The NRA is an advocate for firearms ownership, it is NOT a police force!

[DaveHH]

situation, the first thing they do is take the guns and you may not get them back. Either way, male or female. They may let felons walk away, but domestic violence gets you arrested everytime. A female friend was picked up after an argument with her drunk boyfriend. In the course of the argument, she shoved him and her fingernail scratched his exposed neck. Cops saw the scratch and asked what caused it and pow she's off to the slammer. She was in her PJs and is an extremely attractive woman. She was put in a glass cell in the middle of the Marin County slam and had a pack of leering deputies spend the night shift watching her go to the bathroom and exercise to try and keep warm (I'd love to see how those dopes would react if it was THEIR wife in there). I bailed her out at about 5AM (after tossing her drunk boyfriend out of her house; gee, he didn't want to call the cops when I was his problem). It was a $6K shove in the end. Point being, all the bells and whistles go off in a DV case. This unfortunate situation at the gun range was just bad all around, two guys trying to do their job killed for nothing. It has been a very bad year for L.E.

[jon_norstog]

Mr. Norstag, Similar questions using that premise could be
1. How can the pharmaceutical industry deal with drug addicts?
2. How can the automobile industry deal with car theft?
3. How can the liquor industry deal with DRUNKS?

The NRA is an advocate for firearms ownership, it is NOT a police force!

John,

At least you are thinking.

The pharma people invent, make and sell drugs that are supposed to cure drug addiction. Methadone! Oxycontin! Vicodin! That's what we got from them. In my neighborhood we ran off the dope house, and they ratted out their suppliers. That didn't cure the "drug problem" but it cut it down some for a little while and most definitely moved it out of the 'hood.

The auto industry makes cars with anti-theft interlocks and disablers. They don't prevent theft but they make it a lot harder for amateurs. In my neighborhood we watch out for each other. Things don't get stolen much.

The liquor industry puts up posters urging you to "drink responsibly" and designated a driver. Everyone jokes about being a designated drunk. In my neighborhood, drinking behavior is something we kind of mind our own business about. But we respect sobriety when we see it.

You're right, industry doesn't have much of a problem-solving track record. If you think NRA is a trade association, then I suppose you can say it can't or shouldn't try to solve problems. If you think NRA represents the interests of shooters and hunters, then you might think also that it would at least try and think up a way for the community to watch out for the crazies.

Meanwhile I think I'll call up the Sheriff's Dept in San Mateo Co. and ask them what has ben their xperience with the DV gun confiscation pilot project. They might not want to talk, but if they do I'll pass it on.