"Box of Truth" debunks N Korean thick clothing myth

[imarangemaster]

Interesting read. Seems the little old FMJ military carbine round went through several inches of heavy clothing, blew up a water jug, three boards, and blew a big chunk out of the solid concrete backstops! Seems that almost all hollow point rounds of various calibers failed to expand because they plugged up.

The Box O' Truth #8 - The Rags O' Truth - Page 3

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[Bill Ricca]

I don't doubt it penetrated at the 20 ft or so he was shooting. But he has his facts wrong. Early in the Korean War the carbine was issued as a main battle rifle and soldiers were being killed because they had to engage at distances like 200-300 yards. Remember this cartridge is a little more powerful than a magnum pistol cartridge. I will not bad mouth it because I would prefer it over the Thompson, any day. But to use the cartridge as a main battle rifle is asking to be killed. We learned the hard way.

[Smokehouse69]

I'm sure the rumors are based on hearsay and old wives tales. Stories of crazed masses of Asian soldiers have been around since the Spanish American War and the Philipine Insurrection. I think it might have been started even earlier by the failure of Marine rifle fire to take out Korean soldiers during a little known action in 1871.
The Koreans came up with a vest made of 30 layers of cotton cloth armor because of increasing threats from Western armies. The vests were used in battle during the United States expedition to Korea, when the US Navy and Marines attacked Ganghwa Island in 1871, trying to open Korea to western trade.
I recently read an article in an old gun magazine (1996) issue. It had a long history of the M1 Carbine which I am sure that most of us know pretty well. One of the points the writer brought up was the "Thick Clothing" issue. His point was that this happened for exactly the reason that Bill stated. Another factor was that a lot of the carbines used in Korea were converted to M2 standards. A lot of poorly trained troops when faced with a massed attack used the "spray and pray" method of firing. I think that bad shooting more than lack of power is where it got the reputation.
I WWII it was noted that the M1 Carbine would easily penetrate the Japanese body armor that would stop .45 slugs from an M3 or Thompson submachine gun.
The author of the article stated that M1 Carbine 110 ball service ammo has the muzzle energy up in the same range as a .44 Magnum fired from a pistol. I checked and he was over stating the energy slightly. .44 Magnum from a 6-1/2 barrel 1,200 ft·lbf of energy. M1 Carbine 880 ft·lb from an M1 Carbine. But the energy is higher than a .357 Magnum.

[imarangemaster]

I agree with Bill and Smokehouse. In a thread I started a couple months back about M2 efficacy, I said I felt it was people using it well beyond its intended round and poor fire control on full auto. If you don't hit it, you can't kill it. Full auto for the average soldier was a new concept in the Korean war. I think someone mentioned Bugsy Moran died deader than dead from one!

I think in box of truth he illustrated its power in intended range...

[browningautorifle]

Bugsy Seagle not Moran... Bugs Moran was Capone's main opponent in the thirties. I believe if a weapon is mis employed it won't give the service it was designed for. It was supposed to supplant the pistol. Most guys can't hit anything with a pistol but can with a carbine at reasonable ranges. There are lots of men in the ground from carbine fire. As many men swore by them as swore at them. It's the same with any military weapon. You always get a divided group of thought and loyalty. If you read War Baby by Ruth, you see the same thing on full auto. Some say it worked flawlessly others said it worked for crap. Others said it took a few rounds to warm up. Mine was like the last. I just wish we could quit arguing about it. Let's just take them all out and go through all the ammo we can find and have a great time?

[arado]

The M1 carbine like the M16 works until it's used against equally qualified people using full powered main battle rifles. They Give too much away, in range and power. I'll field an FAL. Gary

[Smokehouse69]

The M1 carbine like the M16 works until it's used against equally qualified people using full powered main battle rifles. They Give too much away, in range and power. I'll field an FAL. Gary

Interesting thing that was in that magazine story was the testimony of an Army surgeon who operated on Viet Namese prisoners that had been wounded and captured in fire fights with South Vietnamese or US soldiers. He said that he could not tell the difference between the wound damage caused by the M2 carbine vs. the M16. That wasn't the case when tending wounds of the M14 or M60, big difference in the wounds.

[phil441]

I just wish we could quit arguing about it. Let's just take them all out and go through all the ammo we can find and have a great time?

I fear it's one of those arguments that will live forever. The stuff on the internet never, ever goes away.
Just accept the little rifle for what it was/is and go on with life enjoying it.