"...actively sought out and destroyed..." 'A' Suffix No.4 Rifles

[jmoore]

This is for all of you who have No.4 rifles of whatever Mk. to record, discuss and display your "non-standard" rifles.

Just to stir the pudding a bit, I speculate that the title phrase may be a bit inaccurate, except in certain situations. I'm thinking that "actively searched out and 'removed from service'" may be a more accurate statement. (more later)

Comments, references, and, especially, photos are welcomed! Likely supsects are pre-WWII trials rifles and WWII Fazackerlys, but any No.4 (or No.5) is fine.

Let's see where this goes.



ETA: Link below to the instigating thread for this one:

Help on Serial Number - Military Surplus Collectors Forums

May post some more links to other older threads if there's interest. -NB:Work in progress- I don't get long breaks!

Peter Laidler's most useful thread on "A" suffix origins:

Mysteries of the 'A' Suffix - Military Surplus Collectors Forums

Spinecracker's thread on "what to look for" (haven't reviewed it, yet):

A suffix on serial number - what parts were typically non-interchangeable? - Military Surplus Collectors Forums

A late ETA: Adding link to newer thread:

Odd No4 number?

In which Peter Laidler adds the possibility that some Fazackerlys may have been suffixed due to non standard rear sight cuts, requiring shims to positively position the sight from side to side.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[jmoore]

To start, This is the only rifle of which I have an online image. It's ugly, but originally it was purchased just for the early forestock and "waisted" SM fore sight protector. However, it shoots well, so it may just stay together, mismatched (Savage) bolt and all.



The butt socket reads(best as I can figure):
ROF
12/42
T29988A

(Too much Christmas cheer? or was it done during a Junkers 88 raid? or both?)

[jmoore]

Example number two:

Aside from what appears to be a light scrubbing of the woodwork, a crispy fresh Fazackerly. The engraved information is still mostly shiney where the bare steel is exposed.

Sorry for the bad camera work, this isn't the good one that I get to borrow sometimes.





Oh, this one has a dated forestock, as mentioned in another thread.

[jmoore]

And for the last of my photo'd Fazackerys today, a painted and import marked Fazackerly that seems to have all the "right" parts, and a dated forestock as well.



Note the small importer's mark at the very bottom of the butt socket- unfortunately, they aren't usually this discrete.



Interesting that the striker and striker retaining screw were not painted- not the usual Bubba job, and the paint is pretty darn tough, don't know exactly what to think of it.

[browningautorifle]

I wonder if the weld on the first one's charger bridge was a field repair? I sure like the front sight base, you don't see them much...

[jmoore]

I wonder if the weld on the first one's charger bridge was a field repair? I sure like the front sight base, you don't see them much...

If you look carefully, they all were welded, apparently from the factory, so I'm guesing that the top one just never had the weld "prettied up". The 6/43 is a little nicer, and the 10/43 only shows as a heat affected zone (localized hardening) in the finish.

The sight protector's quite nifty, but is likely a completely random installation at some point well past the rifle's mfg. date.

[Beerhunter]

Just to stir the pudding a bit, I speculate that the title phrase may be a bit inaccurate, except in certain situations. I'm thinking that "actively searched out and 'removed from service'" may be a more accurate statement. (more later)

I have to say that I am coming around to your view. As I said on other threads I was quoting someone else. Judging by the numbers that appear to have turned up in the US an even more accurate phrase might be: "actively sought out and sold to Sam Cummins/exported to the US"."

[jmoore]

I have to say that I am coming around to your view. As I said on other trheads I was quoting someone else. Judging by the numbers that appear to have turned up in the US an even more accurate phrase might be: "actively sought out and sold to Sam Cummins/exported to the US"."

Beat me to the punchline, you did! I reckon they were turned into cash or favors across the globe.

However, Trials Rifles may have been largely destroyed ---except for the No.4 Mk.I(T)s--- When was the last time anyone saw one of those in original --or even early WWII configuration, VERY few, methinks, are floating about. (Yah, there's some...)

Trials rifle pics are, as always, welcome!

(Like this, but "modded" so that the "A" is a Suffix, not the Prefix-or both suffix AND prefix-that would be Most Special...)



BTW for you MKL referencing types (a GOOD idea), see the faint "1" just crowding the front of the last "3"? Didn't know it would show that well, and this is an old pic

Link to The MKL file and another of it's date close-up.:

1933 No.4 Mk1(T) Sniper - Military Surplus Collectors Forums

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG

(I'm distracting myself from the intent of this thread, but I hope you enjoy!)

[bradtx]

jmoore, A thread who's time is probably long past due, I hope it becomes popular because it seems there's quite a disparity of opinion regarding the Fazakerley A suffix rifles. Time to get factual.

Two things I've read about the A suffix's original intent are a) It's a mark to alert the repair workshop of a rifle being nonstandard in some way and b) a rifle with the A suffix is to be destroyed saving only the reusable, interchangeable pieces. While the two are intertwined I think item a is closer to the intent than item b. Opinions?

Frankly I was surprised by the posters that stated that their experiance had included many WWII manufactured non A suffixed Fazakerleys. My experiance has been quite the opposite with all Fazakerleys I've owned and seen in person having the A suffix. The only non A suffixed WWII production Fazakerley rifles I've seen are a couple of '41 or '42 examples that IIRC were the same as the approved pattern. More non A suffix'd pics would be good.

The question becomes "Why so many A suffix'd Fazakerley rifles?" Perhaps we can shed the blind monks examining an elephant scenario and arrive at some conclusion.

Best of luck to us,
Brad

[jmoore]

Two things I've read about the A suffix's original intent are a) It's a mark to alert the repair workshop of a rifle being nonstandard in some way and b) a rifle with the A suffix is to be destroyed saving only the reusable, interchangeable pieces. While the two are intertwined I think item a is closer to the intent than item b. Opinions?

The only non A suffixed WWII production Fazakerley rifles I've seen are a couple of '41 or '42 examples that IIRC were the same as the approved pattern. More non A suffix'd pics would be good.

I think your item "A" makes sense, mostly due to the fact that I don't think it would be economically or manpower prudent to inspect each rifle AS EACH IS BEING TORN DOWN in hopes of catching whatever non-interchangeable components exist in order to prevent getting them mixed in w/ other standard parts, thus making rebuilds ever so much more difficult. Teardowns get much slower, require a higher skill level, and require more personnel. Also, "odd" parts now HAVE to be tied to a particular weapon. There's enough dramas working "tired" weapons already.

Easier just to pull 'em and worry about 'em later.

I won't mind non-suffixed WWII Fazackerly entries! However, I think they'll really be much more likely to be FTR'd. Let's find out.


"A" suffixed No.4 rifles of other manufacturers are also welcome here. Probably scarce?


Come on, gang! Photos 'til we choke!