Rare Skeleton (Sectionalised) Lee Enfield No4 MK1 Rifle

[Alan de Enfield]

There was a thread some time ago about the legal staus of sectioned / skeletonised rifles.

Here is one being sold as a 'de-act' so MAYBE that answers the questions as far as the UK is concerned.

But -

If it doesnt come with a de-act certificate is it truly (legally) a de-act ?

Rare Skeleton (Sectionalised) Lee Enfield No4 MK1 Rifle - Allied Deactivated Guns - Deactivated Guns

Information

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[Peter Laidler]

Ah, yes.............. But 'deactivated' isn't the same as 'not deemed to be a firearm under the act' which this very probably is - or an 'inert gun' which is also something akin to the last example of 'not capable of discharging a shot bullet etc etc and on and on into la-la-land.......'

The Enfield factory made several 'inert guns' in the form of SA80's which wre used as presentation pieces and demonstrators. I saw one which was engraved 'FOYER DISPLAY'.

[Alan de Enfield]

It doesnt appear to be of the same standard as many of the 'Armourers Sectioned' rifles I've seen (ie the butt is not sectioned) so maybe just a civvy job.

If this was a firearm and then made 'inert' presumably there will be a record of it on the national firearms register and some piece of paper to say it has been 'destroyed'.

[Peter Laidler]

It is pretty much to the official spec AldeE. The rifles were done at List Engineering at Dagenham during the 50's to a certain spec. The butts and other bits and pieces could be and were sectioned locally to show points that were relevant locally. Butts were cut away further at recruit depots to show the correct method of packing the pullthrough and oil bottle. But generally, this was the spec. Those hundreds that I used to see regularly had SKN XXXX type serial numbers but the original number could still be seen occasionally.

Occasionally we would have to machine a new magazine for these if there wasn't one in the spares trays from a scrapped SKN rifle. They were a pig to hold because of their bloody minded shape. If I remember correctly, they were gripped from inside and out at the parallel front and back edges across the milling table, then cut. But there was something odd about the inherent strength in that if you milled the slots first, the whole thing would collapse when you milled the big hole - or vice versa!

I often used to wonder about the Mk1/2 SKN rifles. Thinking that if they were sectioned by List in the 50's, then they could hardly have been used at all as Mk1/2's! If they were converted from Mk1 to 1/2 in the early 50's, then to SKN spec in 1955/56/57 or so. List also did the vast bulk of the skeletonised Brens too.

There's a little pre-quel to that too because the skeletonisation work/contract was temptingly offered to Sterling - of Sterling SMG fame - as a bit of a sweetened over certain patent rights enjoyed by the designers and patentees of the Sterling SMG's. Sterling were busy with their early SMG's that were already selling in good numbers so Mr Redgrave side loaded the Enfield sub contract work to Bert List at List Engineering also locally at Dagenham.

The result was List was happy, Sterling were happy and not compromised. And later, took Enfield/The Government to court for breech of patent rights and Enfield got their work done cheaper by List! The Government lost the case and paid Sterling a lot of money for their cheek.

There............... all because of skeletonised guns. Another little bit of useless Enfield history!

[Beerhunter]

There is no doubt however that it does not benefit from the 1988 Act in terms of De-activated Weapons. For that to be the case it MUST be deactivated to the specification laid by the Home Office AND examined and be certified as such by the Gunmakers Company or the Birmingham Proof House. This is laid down in the primary legislation and there is no way around it.

[Son]

[Alan de Enfield]

Son = Murderer !!!!

[Kev G]

There is no doubt however that it does not benefit from the 1988 Act in terms of De-activated Weapons. For that to be the case it MUST be deactivated to the specification laid by the Home Office AND examined and be certified as such by the Gunmakers Company or the Birmingham Proof House. This is laid down in the primary legislation and there is no way around it.

Not wanting to highjack this thread but would be gratefull for opinions as various bodies have been unable to give a clear explanation regarding status of this item.
Please scroll to the bottom of the page to view deac info.
These do not come with a UK proof house deac cert,nor do you have to be a re-enactor to buy.

Many thanks Kevin

P.S if mods deem this inapropriate my appologies and please delete.

[Beerhunter]

In that case, it will again not benefit from the 1988 Act because the item specifically say that it does have a proof House Certificate.

Next, European Directives are not Law. That directive will have had to rolled into English Law somewhere or, in my opinion, one will be relying on the European Court of Justice. Additionally, in terms of Firearms Laws, Member States are allowed to have stricter firearms laws than the EU Directives if they so wish. For example, we are not allowed to own pistols whereas the rest of the EU is.

Finally although the 2006 Violent Crime Reduction Act specifically excludes from the definition of a “realistic imitation firearm” anything that: "is neither a de-activated firearm nor itself an antique" it does not make it clear whether or not the "de-activated firearm" MUST be one within the meaning of the 1988 Act. In other words this could be another one for the courts.

BTW I would be interested where the ownership of a de-activated Firearm by an under 18 is prohibited by English Law.

Finally I wonder where on earth they find people with fourteen hundred quid to spend on one.

[Mk VII]

It might be deemed not to be a firearm, but you'd have to be prosecuted, convicted in the magistrates' court, and then appeal it to find out.