Fake parts/dealers to avoid?

[JOLkMary]

Hi everyone,

Old guy - new collector - have always wanted Garand and carbine. Finally got to the point where I can start looking. Picked up a pretty beat up Inland with 801XXX serial number. At least scrolling through the auction sites keep me out of trouble (well, not spending trouble!).

Is there a "center" that has a compilation of fake parts/dealers to avoid?

Thanks for all the good info so far!

Information

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[phillydude]

i suggested that to a moderators last year, i never got a response....it would be easy to do,

[painter777]

Philly,
Question could be........
If a known fake parts dealer sells one real part..... Would he have any legal recourse?

Lets just tell the guy to stay away from anything sold from Modesto, CA for now.

Just Wondering,
Charlie-painter777

[Cobretti]

I have a catalog from L&S Supply. Can anyone tell me about them before I start buying stuff?

[jimb16]

They sell a lot of repro parts that are marked like originals.

[Tired Retired]

JOL,

A bit of advice from someone who started just two years ago. There is a BIG learning curb to knowing not only what, but the WHO when it comes to carbine collecting. Here are a few of simple rules of thumb that I follow in collecting:

1) read, ask, read, ask, read and then read. Oh, and believe only about 70% of what you read and 50% of what you are told.
2) regardless to what everyone says (or wants to believe), very few carbines are truely collectable or worth an extremely high price. About 95 % are just shooters (in various condition) with the 5% of collectors already in a true collector's hands (not being sold by profiteers).
3) "Orginal" carbines only exist in museums. Over 98 % of all carbines have been rebuild at least once. Translation - if a carbine has all original manufacturer marked parts, it is a rebuild.
4) It ain't the marking on the part that makes it authentic. It is usually the person you buy it from that makes the part authentic.
5) you will get burned, at least once, as you start buying parts. Happens to everyone of us (even the ones that won't admit it). Its a rite of passage.
6) You can rebuild a carbine using parts which are marked as coming from the same manufacturer (and time period) as were used when it was assembled, but does not make it "original" or even "correct". There were parts transfers between manufactures, a common barrel program and records have long been destroyed. Oh, and after you dump $600 to make all the parts match the receiver manufacturer, all you really accomplished was the 3rd (or 4th or 5th) REBUILD of the carbine in its lifetime. You now have a $900 rebuilt carbine.

I am really not that cynical about this hobby. For me, it is a quest to understand what happened 65 years ago with my father's generation. I have only one that is even close to being a real collectable, but I have a whole bunch of shooters that are just plan fun to shoot! So make sure you buy at least one carbine dedicated to shooting.

Oh and I warn you about one thing - carbines are HIGHLY addictive. Once you start, you are NOT going to be able to stop!

[LeagleEagle]

L&S sold me a fake Saginaw barrel years ago if it's the same outfit I'm thinking of (in Minnesota).

[Bill Ricca]

"Orginal" carbines only exist in museums. Over 98 % of all carbines have been rebuild at least once. Translation - if a carbine has all original manufacturer marked parts, it is a rebuild.

I think you meant "restored". Rebuilt carbines are always a mixture of parts. Restored is done by collectors to make a carbine look "original".

Original carbine do exist in the collections of some of the old timers. While you are correct that over 98% have been rebuilt (probably more like 99.9%), if you know guys that started collecting in the early 1970's, there were originals around.

I was at a gun show in Allentown, circa 1988 and a guy I know showed me a MINT IBM, like the day it was made. It was 100%. I asked him about it. A fellow walked into the show and he asked him if he could look at it. The owner said sure, it was for sale. He asked how much and the owner said it is in the Shotgun News for $129.00 so he will take $100.00. In those days a mint original was probably around $250-300. The owner did not know the difference between a mint original and all those imports that were being advertised. All he knew was his father purchased it in the early 1960's for around $40.00.

If a collector has been around a long time, he can tell an original from a restored carbine. Mostly everything in existence today is either a rebuild or a restored carbine. Not many are around except in the collections of the old timers. And sometime the price will reflect authenticity. A while back I saw a MINT 100% 4 digit Inland for circa $7200.00 at a gun show.

[Tired Retired]

Bill, you are absolutely right and you are an excellent example of what the new guys should be looking for in collecting. That is why I said that the 5% of real collectables are already in true collector's hands.

Yes, I should have used the word "restore" (too early - no coffee). While I understand the desire to restore a carbine to make it "look original", a restoration is still just a rebuild to me since you are taking it apart from its current condition and then putting it back together - you are just using particular parts to do so.

I wish I could have gotten into carbines back when I started in college. I just didn't know any better and certainly didn't have the resources. I know you old timers have seen some beautiful weapons from a historical view point. Most everything I see now is profiteers trying to pass stuff off. Somehow it loses some of the historical value of what our parent's generation did when these weapons were created.


But back to the original poster's questions... having a list of names of the profiteers and fake part sellers won't do you much good. They will change their names and what they sell because they are here for only the money. The person "suggested" in California is STILL in business despite the number of people that complain about him. He uses several names on the auction sites to keep the money flow moving. Uneducated buyers still throw their money away. I stand my statement of not only knowing WHAT you are buying, but also knowing WHO you buy it from.



Bill, as a side note - You have no idea how I long to be in your last will and testiment or the will of a couple of other old timers! (but stick around a few more years, will ya?) Feel free to add me if you want to.

[campperrykid]

FWIW:
It might better (as a beginner , in particular ) to focus on as found , as issued , and honest rebuilds . For example , a CMP Carbine with paperwork from a specific time period and Italian markings has an honest history . A Blue Sky Carbine is ( most of the parts anyway ) a re-import from South Korea. I personally don't even try to restore the old guns or buy true collectors pieces. Trying would only be a set-up for failure , given my limited knowledge and experience in detecting fakes.
Hope that helps and YMMV.

ETA:
Your best bet for a nice retail Garand at a good price is CMP. The bad news is that CMP is out of M1 Carbines.
When Carbines start flowing back through commercial imports from various allies in Asia there are likely to be some good retail deals again.