Mark 4 T without S 51 stamp on stock

[Entry Level]

I am trying find out why the stock on my Mark 4 T doesn't have an S 51 stamp. There is a stamp next to buttplate of an S. I find only reference to a short buttstock that might be on the rifle. The rifle has a Mark 1 scope with shade that could give a wicked cut if extended. I am tall with long arms and still need this stock length to get close enough to the scope. A longer stock would put me too far from the scope. Is this something that was done after the rifle left H&H. The marks indicate the Birmingham S A Factory in 1943. The serial # AV 2287 it has a KL scope #7516. Thanks for any information

Information

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[Badger]

It's possible that the butt was replaced while in service ...

Check the England - Knowledge Library for a 1944 Enfield No.4 Mk1(T) Sniper Rifle (click here)
(Mfg by BSA Shirley - M47c) c/w matching Model No.32 Mk.3 Scope (Mfg by Taylor-Hobson & Co.)

You can tell from the wood knocks and other marks in the pics, that this old girl saw some duty time ..

(Click PIC to Enlarge)


As noted in the Comments section of that MKL entry above, keep in mind that even genuine No.4(T)'s may have undergone some factory repairs, therefore they may not exactly match descriptions. A good example is a rifle that went through one of the W.R.S. (Weedon Repair Standard) sub-contractors. Referring to Ian Skennerton's book "The Broad Arrow", a rifle having undergone W.R.S. repairs, may be identified by a six (6) pointed star stamped into the wood, with a letter stamped underneath it indicating the specific sub-contractor who did the work. For example, the pics of the MKL entry above show a different (not the one in photo pictorial) 1944 M47c (BSA Shirley) No.4 Mk1(T), that has no S51 stamped under the butt, however, the butt itself was changed during a visit to for W.R.S. work to W.W. Greener, as indicated by the six (6) pointed star and the letter V, which was their sub-contractor code letter. Therefore, when this rifle is examined overall, it's obviously a legitimate No.4(T), probably having been returned for repair from service, after having undergone some kind of damage in the field.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)


Regards,
Doug

[Roger Payne]

I suspect (though am not absolutely sure) that all 4T's were fitted with standard length butts, at least from the outset, so (if my suppositon is correct) if you have a rifle with with a short or long butt then it would not have the S51 code on it. This does not make it any the less a genuine 4T though. Bits being swapped over during it's service career is all part of its history.

Enjoy your rifle.

ATB

[Peter Laidler]

We swopped butts and altered the shape of cheek pieces to suit the whims of the sniper teams with monotonous regularity. They could call the shots with their rifles - if you'll excuse the pun!

I'd never noticed that all the No4T's were fitted with normal length butts but that could well be correct. A long butt was a VERY tight fit in the chest though

[Lance]

I have one T that was fitted with a long butt, the tight fit into the transit chest was solved by the removal of the wooden block in the chest right behind butt plate.

[Entry Level]

Thanks for the information. I don't remember who said it but "buy the rifle not the story" is so true so I am loading my car for a trip to the range Saturday. Did some reloading so will take chronograph. One member suggested reading "British Snipers To the Reich" so I am in the middle of that now. Again thanks to the very knowledgeable members who responded.

[PrinzEugen]

I have one T that was fitted with a long butt, the tight fit into the transit chest was solved by the removal of the wooden block in the chest right behind butt plate.

Does it have the S51 on it though Lance, indicating it was the first one fitted?

Just to add to the debate - whenever in the past I've gone on to one of my shooting club re markings etc, particularly with regards to butts he has found it most amusing. As an ex sniper himself he points out that whenever a sniper wanted a change eg shorter or long butt etc he sent it to the armourer who whipped it off and fitted a new one. Job done no S51 markings, still 'correct' not 'original' (going back to the debate in the other thread).

[Peter Laidler]

We kept all the woodwork in a big brown cardboard box (or more correctly, several large cardboard boxes) that we'd draw from as and when it was needed. If a short butted No4T needed a medium butt, then we'd look for a medium butt with a cheek rest. We didn't worry about the niceties of it all. If it was what he wanted/needed, then off came the old telescope number and on went the new one. Everyone was happy. Except of course the new civilian owner 30 years later...............

[Roger Payne]

Lance,
That's interesting.....does it indeed have the S51?

ATB

[Lance]

Sorry for the delay, no S51, but then again if there was I would be worried. My one long butt example is on a Long Branch T.