2 versus 5 groove, date of manufacture, sight type for no4 mk1 enfield?

[lxvnrsw]

Looks like I'm going to go ahead and pick myself up a no4. mk1. You guys have provided a wealth of information, for which I am very grateful.

A few last questions:

Is there any significant difference between 2 versus 5 grove barrels in terms of accurate in a match setting/barrel life?

Are there any dates (pre war, during war, post war) that one should look for/avoid?

And I'm looking at one particular rifle with a C type 3 rear sight fitted. For matches is there a better sight you guys would recommend? Does anyone have a picture of the sight I could see perhaps?

Thanks again,

Alex

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Thunderbox]

There is no discernible difference between 2, 4, 5 and 6-groove barrels either in accuracy or longevity. If no significant variation could be detected during Army trials using factory rifles and test equipment, then the modern short-range hobby shooter is not likely to be able to notice anything.

There are no performance variations between any of the No4s built in different times/places. Even a rough-looking No4 can shoot superbly. Principally, so long as the bore is clean and unpitted, and the forend fit within specification, then any No4 should shoot well.

Just buy the first No4 that appeals to you, and take it from there. Once you've got used to one rifle, you'll begin to appreciate the way they work and thus have more experience when you come to buy the second, third, fourth....

[Badger]

Some past threads on the subject from a site Google CSE search ...

2 versus 5 groove barrel

Long Branch 2 and 5 groove barrels

Merits of 2 and 5 groove rifling

2 groove barrels versus 4 groove barrels?

There were a lot more threads, but I thought these would be enough to get you started ....

Regards,
Doug

[RJW NZ]

T Box is right on, good advice.
Don't pass up a good rifle based on the sight, you can easily change sights later, cheaply, to get the best one that you like. For more info on enfields go to enfield resource.com, for the best advice and source for enfields if you're in the USA got to BDL Ltd, Brian Dick, hands down recommended by many satisfied customers on this forum.

Hmm, what No4 to buy? The best ones are the post WW2, 1955'ish No4 Mk2, they are very accurate, and available in very good conditions. If you really want WW2 models, ie a No4 mk1, then you will find comments that Canadian Longbranch and USA Savage made rifles are nicely made, as befits products from a factory not actually being bombed. If you want WW2 brit they are pretty much an equal bag quality wise, it all depends on the hard life or not of the rifle you find, choose the rifle based on what you can see, ie not too aged or worn, shiny bright bore with plenty of rifling, wood not too knocked around, etc.
See Brian, he has a website, also listed in enfieldresource.com

Go to gunbroker.com to see a wide range of enfields and their prices.
and ps welcome to the forum,
$5 says you have more than one in the next 6 months,.lol

[newcastle]

2nd vote for Brian he's the only place I would buy and L E from without seeing the rifle myself.

[brownie]

what you need for target shooting is a Parker-Hale PH5C receiver sight. These fit on the Enfield#4 where the military sight is and a longer ejector screw is used also.

[lxvnrsw]

Yeah I've been looking for a parker-hale PH5c sight on ebay a bit. Anyone have one they'd be possibly willing to part with at a reasonable price?

[David TS]

Yeah I've been looking for a parker-hale PH5c sight on ebay a bit. Anyone have one they'd be possibly willing to part with at a reasonable price?

Also consider other aperture sights - Central and A J Parker Twin Zero 4/47 spring to mind (I have the latter on my No 4 Mk II). The AJP is reckoned to be more robust than the PH5c.

There are a number of butchered/worn sights around, the most important thing is to find one that is in useable condition.

There are two versions of the PH5c - 1/4 MOA and 1/2 MOA, plus a lightweight aluminium version, the latter generally considered one to avoid.

If you already know all this, my apologies

[lxvnrsw]

No this is all news to me! The TZ 4/47 looks significantly more robust too. Anyone got one perhaps for sale?

[smellie]

The guys I used to shoot with (and they were some of the best there were) regarded a 2-groove barrel as fully competitive versus a 5-groove barrel out to, and including, 600 yards.

That was in old-style Service Rifle shooting under the old DCRA rules: you run what you brung and the Army supplied whatever old ammunition they had lying around and everybody shot the same stuff. Handloads at that time were in the "Stregstens VERBOTEN" category, something which you don't have to deal with, thankfully. ONE round at the firing-point which didn't match the ammo being issued and you were out of the match and off the range permanently. Guys used to draw their practise ammo the day before and sort through the rounds, mix-and-match for bullet run-out, seating depth, tightness of crimp, primer centering and all that. I was never good enough to get to that state, but I do know that it was done. You will be running fresh ammo, and you know how it was put together, so you don't have that problem.

I am handloading with Canadian WW2 brass made by Defence Industies. This is the stuff you find sometimes at gun shows, headstamped only "DI the YEAR Z" as "DI 1944 Z", the stampings at noon, 4 and 8 o'clock. For handloading, I find that this is the most consistent brass I can find anywhere; the rims all are right at .063". Considering where you are, it should be possible to locate a hundred or so of these. The ammo itself was packed in brown cardboard boxes of 48 rounds. It uses a standard Boxer primer and was non-corrosive and non-mercuric. It was also very accurate if stored well, although it is getting a bit long in the tooth by this time. The brass, however, is fine. If you are buying sealed boxes be SURE that the seal says "DI": there is also "DA" and you don't want this at all; it's great ammo but it is mercuric, corrosive AND Berdan-primed: the worst of all possible worlds.

Failing a source of Defence Industries brass, might I suggest Prvi Partizan, out of Serbia. This is made closer to the British military specs than is American ammunition, which is governed by SAAMI specs rather than King's Orders and Regulations, it is easy to reload, it is available and it is fine brass. Graf's has it in bulk.

There should be a thread around here somewhere showing how to use Ed's O-Ring trick to give you perfectly-centralised expansion on your brass. It really works, too! I recently got 100 very thin O-rings at our local Dollar Store.... for a buck! They were being sold as girls' hair accessories, you know, those thingies for ending off braids or pony-tails. Work just fine.... and cheap!

Nice thing about a 2-groove barrel is that the thing has only 2 grooves..... and they are opposite each other. Also, the grooves themelves are pretty wide but not excessively so. They last about five-eighths of forever and they tend to be more forgiving of boat-tailed bullets than do the 5-groove tubes. There are a couple of VERY nice BT bullets available these days in .311/.312 that a fellow could play around with in this regard.

BTW, the CMark3 sight is one of the really good ones; the CMark2 was fragile. Only better sight is the Mark 1... and they are slow to adjust in comparison.

Most important of all: enjoy!
.