Ye Olde No4

[MkIX]

Hello all, this is my first post here although I've nosed around a bit and referred to the excellent information on the site several times before.

Anyway, for the last few years I've had an all matching (receiver, bolt, mag, stock) No4 Mk1/2 PF24598 that has stumped my (slack) attempts at dating it; unless I'm mistaken the "F52"s stamped all over it (although there's an additional "F54" on the trigger guard 'plate') means it was FTR'd in '52.

The problem is I'm very interested in the date it was actually manufactured, it would be nice to find out if it was a war time rifle or not. I don't know a great deal about the history of these rifles but am I right in saying that particular serial number is indeed from around 1952 and that the rifle would have had another serial number when it was a Mk1? I've got pictures of just about every mark on the rifle but haven't found any evidence of another serial or anything else that helps my untrained eye. Here are a few.

Can anyone tell me more about this rifle?
Cheers, Rob

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[LesterH]

The F52 and F54 is for RSAF Fazakerly in Liverpool. In 1954 the Fazakerly machinery was sold to Pakistan. I don't think you have an FTR. No FTR stamping next to the serial number. Nice rifle and I hope you enjoy shooting it.

[Peter Laidler]

No Lester......... The Fazakerley manufacturing plant was owned and operated by the Ministry of Supply and after the factory closed was retained and stored (at an ex RAF Ordnance depot near Aylesbury). The L1A1 rifle making plant was distributed to BSA to aid the manufacture of the L1A1 rifle following the total intransigence of the Fazakerley workforce and to assist Lithgow to get into full production (and to avoid wasting the machinery AND recoup the money of course). BSA on the other hand was a totally private venture who made rifles for the Government on contract via the Ministry of Supply. After the last No4 rifles were produced there just before the war ended, the weren't allowed to make any more rifles except under contract, such as No5's and 8's but as part of the agreement, had to keep the rifle making (and Sten incidentally) plant on a care and maintenance basis for 10 years - after which they were free to dispose of it...... which they did!

Mk9. Your Mk1/2 rifle is marked in a way that is totally alien to any other OFFICIAL Fazakerley factory markings that I have ever seen. Yours reads as if it's a Mk 4 and a half - which it's not and never has been. The marking at the factory was etched as 'No4 Mk1/2' as in 'one oblique two'. In addition, Fazakerley were notorious for engraving the rifles bodies (and everything else) with what we called a 'scratchy pen'. Yours has been deeply engraved after the event with a pantograph and it looks to me as though the original 'scratchy-pen' marks have been linished out.

If a Mk1 rifle went in as number B-12345, then it came out again as a Mk1 (or a Mk1/2) B-12345. The controlled stores register kept at the factories and the Ordnance Depots would be in chaos if it were any different

I'm sure that otherts will have some other comments and ideas when the PF 245xx serial number range was introduced - but 4 and a half it ain't!

[Brian Dick]

The markings on the body certainly grabbed me too. I've never seen those type marking before on a Fazakerley No.4Mk.1/2. Very strange.

[tlvaughn]

I'm sure that otherts will have some other comments and ideas when the PF 245xx serial number range was introduced - but 4 and a half it ain't!

PF 24598 would have been a MkI manufactured in 6/1948. Looking closely at the first picture, the style reminds me of the markings on POF rifles.

[MkIX]

Nice rifle and I hope you enjoy shooting it.

I do, when I can find ammo or reasonably priced bullets.

Mk9. Your Mk1/2 rifle is marked in a way that is totally alien to any other OFFICIAL Fazakerley factory markings that I have ever seen. Yours reads as if it's a Mk 4 and a half - which it's not and never has been. The marking at the factory was etched as 'No4 Mk1/2' as in 'one oblique two'. In addition, Fazakerley were notorious for engraving the rifles bodies (and everything else) with what we called a 'scratchy pen'. Yours has been deeply engraved after the event with a pantograph and it looks to me as though the original 'scratchy-pen' marks have been linished out.

Hmm, so it's a bit of an odball. Thanks for the info.

PF 24598 would have been a MkI manufactured in 6/1948. Looking closely at the first picture, the style reminds me of the markings on POF rifles.

It's good to finally have a date, thanks.

[Peter Laidler]

If you want the honest truth, your rifle LOOKS to me like a Mk2 rifle as opposed to a Mk1/2. Maybe we can see a photo of the trigger bracket on the butt socket. I'll tell you why afterwards............... so don't bank on that date just yet!

[Thunderbox]

I've seen a few other rifles in the UK trade with the exact same pantograph font - those rifles were all "put togethers".

I'd guess that this rifle started as one of the commercial Mk 1/2 converted receivers that have been languishing at AJ Parkers - these are converted and grey phosphated, and generally the original markings are obscured - and that someone has built the rifle up subsequently, adding the engraving along the way.

[MkIX]

The plot thickens. Now that I look closely at the trigger bracket it doesn't seem to be welded on...

[Peter Laidler]

I can't quite see the top radius of the bracket clearly but it looks like a Mk1/2 unless anyone can see something I've missed. It's actually brazed in place so as to not upset the hardening and tempering of the locking surfaces close by