"Folded up" British bayonet frogs.

[Flying10uk]

There are some British bayonet frogs coming onto the milserps collector's market in what I like to call "folded up" state. I had assumed that this was simply a step taken out of conveniency in order to take up less space in storage. Recently it was suggested to me that the frogs were actually sometimes worn in the "folded up" state when in use with the British No4 Pig-sticker bayonet. If this is the case I don't see how the frog could be attached to the relatively wide British belt? This may seem like a fairly simplistic question to ask but it is one that I don't know the answer to. Many thanks for any information.

N.B. In this instance the frogs are blancoed blue indicating RAF issue although this is not really relevant to the question.

Information

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[browningautorifle]

This is simply for storage and transport purposes. Made smaller. You can't do anything with it folded up. The bayonet doesn't fit, a belt...nothing.

[Flying10uk]

That's what I thought, Jim, until I noticed a fellow collector, who will remain nameless, with a Pig Sticker displayed in the frog in the "folded up" state. The 2 frogs pictured in post 1, I purchased recently off eBay and both came "folded up". I then tried to figure out how to attache it to the standard British belt in the "folded up" state.

[browningautorifle]

I don't think you'd get any belt, even a pants belt into it. I picked one up in Cyprus my second tour that was cast off battle damage. There'd been a man wounded and they cut off his gear and left it there. Took me the whole first tour to look at it and the second tour I went and got it. There had been a hold punched above the slot for the 1907 scabbard button and the frog was used just as was. This whole thing is a pipe dream from a dealer that simply doesn't know.

[Peter Laidler]

Maybe some units folded stuff up like that for kit and locker layouts. Like us rolling all our '37 pattern cross-straps and small pack straps up - and filling our pouches up with wood blocks to make them look square for kit layouts........... Why ever did we put up with all of this gumph?

[old-smithy]

I have both British and Italian frogs this way, the British are official and not for storage it was to make a shorter frog for the No4 bayonet. My Italian's are 1891 Carcano frogs folded to make a short frog for the M38 folding bayonets. The UK ones don't fit on the belt but on the 38 webbing, I believe.

---------- Post added at 12:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 PM ----------

They are correct frogs for the No4, I believe the folded frog fits on strap on the webbing other than the belt. I have the same for the Italian M38 folding knife made by folding the 1891 Carcano

[browningautorifle]

it was to make a shorter frog for the No4 bayonet.

I still don't think it will fit anything...and they go on the belt, not some strap. Do you have any publications with this shown? Doesn't make any sense...and Peter would have experienced it firsthand I would think.

[Flying10uk]

As Jim has said, and I also don't see how the "folded up" frog can fit a belt, unless the belt was under 1 1/2" wide. I was surprised to see a Pig Sticker bayonet displayed in one, with the frog in it's "folded up" state. In my mind the most likely explanation is that the frogs were "folded up" for ease of storage i.e. in order to take up less space. What I'm hoping for is that someone can demonstrate that the frog can indeed be attached to the standard British belt, in it's "folded up" state, in some way that I haven't thought of or is able to provide photographic evidence that the frog was actually used in it's "folded up" state. Thanks for any information.

[Peter Laidler]

I would only disagree with Old Smithy with a great deal of trepidation......... When I joined as an apprentice in January 1963 we had No4's and spike bayonets. And for years afterwards small units at home and abroad had No4's and spike bayonets and I never saw frogs folded up. If this were the done thing, it'd be written down somewhere like the 1954 Equipment Regulations. It was these equipment regulations that the stated quite clearly that the brass buckles etc etc of the 1937 pattern webbing were not to be polished but left to dull naturally. That was all well and good but most CSM's and RSM's hadn't heard of them - or less still, read them. And if HE said the brass buckles were to be polished, then guess what happened?

Additionally, during the parade ground order 'SQUAD WILL FIX BAYONETS......... SQUAD........FIX.....' The rifle is pushed forwards to the extend of the right arm and at the same time, the left arm/hand grabs the socket (of the No4 or No9 bayonet), twists it round through 90 degrees and you pull the bayonet out DOWNWARDS out of the scabbard. In doing this, the frog is twisted/rotated downwards to suit. On the next command, a few seconds later of "....BAYONETS....' you fix the bayonet to the rifle, tap it to make sure that it's fixed firmly and bring the rifle back into the right side while the left arm is brought sharply to the left side. None of this could happen if the frog were short or folded as shown. These drills were the same with all the bayonets from the old No1's, No4's and right through to the No5's.

Incidentally, there was no method of fixing the No7 bayonet onto the No4 rifle 'on parade'. Don't ask me how I remember all of these drill movements. Just drummed into you so it became like acting by rote

[browningautorifle]

the left arm/hand grabs the socket

With the fingers of the left hand still fully extended and together...